Author Topic: New Break-Time App: Take 10!  (Read 10813 times)

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David_McGraw

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New Break-Time App: Take 10!
« on: Sep 22, 2012, 11:30 pm »
Mark Stys, an AEA SM, released a new app two days ago called Take 10!  This app does for the iPhone, newer iPod Touches, and the iPad what Will Pickens' MegaWatch did for the laptop: provide a clean and straightforward way to track Equity breaks.  I will post my review on iTunes and on my own website so that I don't cross any lines by promoting a product on these message boards.

The reason I am making this post is to discuss the cost of software specifically designed for stage managers.  The biggest question for many stage managers looking at this app will be "Is it worth the cost?"  Take 10! costs $14.99.  With all fairness to Mark (whom I just met for the first time two days ago), if this app were being sold to millions or even tens of thousands of users, I would expect to pay $1.99 or even $0.99 on sale.  Don't get me wrong - it is a very good app.  But it is a timer app and there are great generic timer apps that cost between free and $1.99.

But let's say that this app did cost $0.99 and it was insanely popular among stage managers.  It might sell 1,000 copies over a two-year span.  Apple takes 30% of all revenue and charges $99/year in developer licenses.  To reach a thousand stage managers, you will need to advertise and maintain a website.   I know from a short e-mail exchange with Mark that it took him the better part of a year to develop this app.  If he, or any stage manager creating new apps, charged "Angry Birds prices," he would make less than a half-week's salary for months of work and years of customer service.  And that's if the app is popular.

So, if we want specialized apps for our field, are we willing to pay a "premium" given that we are such a niche market?  Other niche markets have foundations or large commercial companies that are willing to pick up the costs as part of their philanthropic or brand awareness goals.  But we don't have pools of funding other than if we, as individuals, are willing to invest.

What do you think?
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ericjames

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Re: New Break-Time App: Take 10!
« Reply #1 on: Sep 23, 2012, 12:10 am »
A person's willingness to spend on money on a specific piece of software depends greatly on the person and that particular software.   I have not used Take 10! (to be fair, as of the time of writing, I have not even so much as looked it up online), however, if the software is purely a fancy stopwatch or timer, then no, I would not spend $15 or even $1 on this app.  If it has additional functionality, then that would of course affect my decision.    That being said, there is definitely industry specific software that I spend a large amount of money on.   In addition to stage managing, I am also a lighting designer and electrician.  As a result, I own copes of Vectorworks and Lightwright, which are far from free, but, I don't hesitate to make the purchases because they make my life much simpler and/or are becoming an industry standard. 

I believe people in our industry are the same as any other industry, we are willing to pay the price for software, hardware, tools, etc as long as there is a strong and/or compelling reason for the purchase.  No one wants to spend money on something that is not necessary.

I'm really interested to see where this discussion goes!

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Re: New Break-Time App: Take 10!
« Reply #2 on: Sep 23, 2012, 12:50 am »
Good approach to discussing this new item. Thanks for bringing it up in this particular way, David.

What I've found after 12 years of doing computer stuff for theatre people is that they extremely resistant to the trope of quality. In the general public there is an understanding that a custom made, high quality product will cost more, and a willingness at a certain level to embrace that quality if its merited. The premium paid for Apple systems over PC hardware/software combos is a primary example. Or the difference in ticket prices between storefront improv and a LORT show.

Artists, particularly technicians, when confronted with such a dilemma will first try to DIY a better version of their own. We are not wealthy. We are used to investing our own time instead of spending money. The outcome? The maker/technician is equally likely to be turned away from the original product out of jealousy when they can't match it, or begrudgingly adopt very late in the game.

So much of the work of an SM can be done with existing tools. And we are traditionalists. I have heard "we always do it this way" more often from stage managers than from any other member of the backstage establishment. It's a personality bias, though. I think we are naturally inclined towards thriftiness and self-sufficiency otherwise we wouldn't be in this industry at all. We even consider it acceptable (except the very top level pros) to bring our own gear with us to customize our environments to our liking. Conversely, no carpenter working in a scene shop would be expected to bring her own tools, although at the highest levels they might do so. Do you know any other industries besides schoolteachers, stage managers and missionaries where you're expected to stock the shop out of your own pocket?

Even so, we crave custom-built apps. Current methods are like using a pair of pliers to remove a screw - it can be done, but it would be much faster if you had a screwdriver. After watching every other section of backstage tech get revved up with lasers and scrollers and digital boards it can feel a little like we're being left behind with our laptops. What we forget is that we pretty much adopted tech before the rest of the departments, back when the only color available was black. Now that there's a spectrum available we're so accustomed to our old-school tech that we don't realize we were probably the pioneers that inspired everyone else.

In contemplating over the years on how to monetize SMNetwork I have pretty much given up on all methods except for fundraising drives. There is no way to properly define us to advertisers that would bring in suitable, SM-targeted banner ads. Unfocused ads, which I've tried before, backfired badly. Affiliate programs didn't work either, as most members are pretty darned destitute and not going to be buying anything through the full price shops that offer that kind of thing. There are no tie-in marketing schemes, giveaways or raffles that would really work given our global audience. 12 years along and we don't even have a logo although I've put out the call for logo designs multiple times. Fortunately our costs are small, and our donors are generous. However, out of over 4000 members, our 2011 fundraising drive succeeded on the backs of just 34 fantastic, generous and very kind and much appreciated donors.

Any business-owner has to consider his potential market before developing a new product. I'm enough of an open source advocate that it overrides any need for income from the stuff that I build for stage managers. I just want to break even on hosting the site. Even so, I've shot down about 30 ideas for new SMNetwork functions because the audience just isn't big enough. Only BTDT and the Internship Review project really survived my own market research as being worth the time required to build them. Stys' pricing is smart and will hopefully earn him at least a few beers for his efforts and dedication to the community.

There's any kind of rationale out there that I could use to encourage you guys to go buy Stys' app. I want to see it succeed. It's one of the first real SM-specific apps we've seen since the dawn of the mobile era. I could say, "if there weren't other $0.99 stopwatch apps out there, would it be worth it?" I could say, "I just spent $6 on a financial calculator app with no problem even though there were free alternatives, because it was clearly the best for my needs." I could even say, "If you guys want stage manager apps like you've been saying for so long, this is your moment to prove it."

But I unfortunately think that unless he somehow offers it as a tie in to equity dues he's going to have a tough time of it. Can anyone help me out with a little optimism to the contrary?
« Last Edit: Sep 23, 2012, 01:50 am by PSMKay »

BLee

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Re: New Break-Time App: Take 10!
« Reply #3 on: Sep 23, 2012, 02:01 am »
I was debating on whether to post an opinion on this topic or not, especially since I am a cheapskate and would only be able to offer an point of view along Kay's observation that I would rather put in more time to do it manually for free than pay to simplify the process.

Then I thought about what exactly would it take for me to take the plunge on an SM specific tool of any amount. I'm not a member of Equity at this time, so that would not be motivation, but I realized that my graduate program basis rules and policys with reference to the AEA Production Rulebook. This includes determining breaks (as we are practicing to do our jobs in a union environment). With this in mind, and knowing how easy it is to lose track of Equity break schedules and times, an app like Take 10! would be very useful and perhaps worth the expense.

But what would absolutely convince me to purchase this app? If one of my SM mentors or graduate school colleagues recommended the app as a necessity to do my job properly I would be extremely likely to purchase the app. Therefore, David, I think you are in the best position to encourage the use of this type of product in the SM community. Word of mouth is a strong purchase motivator and students taking the lead from others in the field is just the type of ground floor a product needs.

I know this works because of how quickly this type of product spreads just within our program. During my first year one of the other SMs students bought an iPad. Now, three years later, we almost all have iPads and consider it almost a necessity to do our jobs effectively. We share tips and tools that make it a useful platform for increased job performance. Same for the apps we purchase. When one finds success we spread the news to everyone else who often follow the tip.

So that is my advice. The market is not the obvious Equity SMs who are already established with a method that works for them, but students who are currently developing those methods and are open to the latest and greatest tools for success. The cost of $14.99 is very steep for a student budget and would be a big constraint on profitability within this student market, but $2.99 or even possibly $4.99 would not be unheard of for an SM tool we recommend.

--------

On a secondary note: Kay, have you looked into Amazon Affiliates for SMNetwork? I'm not sure if it would work for this set-up, but I feel like we all probably use Amazon.com for any number of purchases. I would certainly be willing to search Amazon.com through the SMNetwork Amazon search engine so the site got a small kick back when I make a purchase. Again, not positive of the details of the program, but it might be interesting if you have not already investigated the possibility.
« Last Edit: Sep 23, 2012, 02:04 am by BLee »
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RuthNY

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Re: New Break-Time App: Take 10!
« Reply #4 on: Sep 23, 2012, 07:42 am »
I have purchased Take 10, and look forward to using it for very simple reasons:

The purchase is a tax deductible expense.

I want to encourage developers to create SM specific software. I want to encourage SMs, in fact, to become developers, to create SM specific software. No one knows what we do, like we do. Our community is best placed to write code to our needs. I will support any SM specific software that actually functions in the way it is advertised to function!

Let's not scare others away from having great ideas, and bringing them into fruition.

And yes, I take blocking with a pencil and paper. But, if a great program was developed for that, taking into account SM needs, not Director and Choreographer, (and, what we've seen so far, doesn't cut the mustard) you bet I'd try it. And apps for other SM related duties as well.
« Last Edit: Sep 23, 2012, 04:20 pm by RuthNY »
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Scott (formerly Digga)

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Re: New Break-Time App: Take 10!
« Reply #5 on: Sep 23, 2012, 11:45 am »
The purchase is a tax deductible expense.
This is one of the main reasons I've bought the app as well.  Do I need it?  No.  I know how to tell time and have a stopwatch on my phone just like everybody else out there.  I also still use Will Pickens Megawatch religiously on my laptop every time I'm in rehearsal and even use it to time my performances. 

But $15 for an app that makes my life easier isn't all that bad in the grand scheme of things.  It's less than 3 cups of Starbucks in NYC and since my current theater provides coffee for free, I can skip the occasional Starbucks for a week or 2 to pay for it.  I haven't played too much with it yet and like David, I won't post a review on it but I'll put something up on my website and review the app on it's app page as well after some more use.

Also as Ruth said, if there was an app or program that made taking blocking notation and writing cues in my script easier, I would easily buy it.  For now, pencil and rulers are still the best method for me that I've found.

BLee also brought up a good point in the word of mouth.  I am constantly telling new ASMs and interns about SMNetwork because of the knowledge base we have here.  I've used the site for almost 10 years now and though I don't contribute often, I try to help out when I can.  I've also made cyber friends with this site and passing it along to other SMs is easiest to do by telling them.  Will Picken's MegaWatch is very popular because SMs tell each other about it and share it around.  Yes it helps that he made it free for anyone but he also doesn't advertise it.

PSMKay

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Re: New Break-Time App: Take 10!
« Reply #6 on: Sep 23, 2012, 01:54 pm »
On a secondary note: Kay, have you looked into Amazon Affiliates for SMNetwork?

I used Amazon Affiliates for SMNet from 2000 to 2004. Never saw a cent from it and the maintenance time required was pretty intense.

Maggie K

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Re: New Break-Time App: Take 10!
« Reply #7 on: Sep 23, 2012, 08:44 pm »
Does anyone know if there are any plans to make an Android version of this?
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Re: New Break-Time App: Take 10!
« Reply #8 on: Sep 23, 2012, 11:51 pm »
Disclaimer - Mark was a PA of mine and then a student of mine and after I emailed him to congratulate him on the release of the app he sent me a promo code to try it for free and to show to my current students.

I'll avoid a review of the app here for the reasons in the disclaimer, but I like the way this conversation thread has been going.  I am fairly set in the routines that work best for me in rehearsal, one of my oldest being that I always have a post it labeled "Next Break" with the times for the 5/10 minute breaks posted on my clock so that anyone coming up to ask about the break schedule sees that information without interrupting and the rest of my team can see it as well in case I have to leave the table for any reason.  This works well for me.  I like having my phone free for other things.

I am slow to test out new technology, I got a smart phone last fall and don't have a tablet.  This app is a way of testing the ground.  Yes, I can track breaks on my phone or stopwatch, but I like the push to see what's out there.  I have a very small, simple show coming up and am willing to branch out to try new systems.  I like that this purchase price will encourage Mark to continue developing software for stage management specific needs, I know that he has a lot of ideas but not enough time to devote to making them work while also earning a living.  So I second what a few people have already said - I simply want the app to succeed to encourage more like it.  When I emailed Mark to congratulate him on the app I teased him about the few things I would like to see added before I would pay the current price, but I'm thrilled that he simply got the app up and running and released as it is.

I will be talking about the app with my students as we discuss all of the times you need to track in rehearsal and I'm sure that some of them will purchase it just as a gadget and some to support a former classmate.  And as others have said, it's tax deductible and less than three drinks from Starbucks.  That and the opportunity to support a colleague are probably good enough reasons for several people.

cbandes

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Re: New Break-Time App: Take 10!
« Reply #9 on: Sep 24, 2012, 12:06 am »
Hi folks,

I've got nothing to do with Take10, but I am a developer so I have a different perspective...

Specifically, I've abandoned work on my SM app because it became clear to me that it would be impossible for me to make any money off of it. I put about a year's worth of work into it, and a lot of thought and love, but I wasn't able to create any enthusiasm at all. So one thing I'd encourage folks to think about is this - forget about money - are you willing to support (financially, emotionally, intellectually) those few developers who actually care about your field? My personal experience has been that the answer is no.

Perhaps the reason is that there just isn't a need for software tools at all. Perhaps it's because you guys feel like there have been too many opportunistic and exploitive products out there. Perhaps it's that the products are bad. It can't just be that these tools are too expensive, because let's face it, they aren't. If there were a tool out there that was really good, that saved you hours a week, that made your life a little less stressful, surely it would be worth paying some money for, right? (I can only assume that the one I've been building was none of those things, alas.)

So, my advice, for what it's worth: Devs are just like anyone else, they want to feel appreciated. Anyone targeting your field must be motivated by some sort of affection (there is no way that a rational person would think they could make more money selling to SMs than, say, to MBAs.) Positive, constructive encouragement is going to go further for most of these sorts of devs than dollars. If I felt that anyone cared about my app, I'd still be working on it, even though I know I'll never make a dime from it.

Remember also that, although $15 seems like a LOT of money on the app store, it is about the cost of a roll of gaff tape. The app probably took a regular person months and months of labor to create. The tape rolled off an assembly line and will soon get used up. (Granted, the app probably can't hold your set together...)




PSMKay

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Re: New Break-Time App: Take 10!
« Reply #10 on: Sep 24, 2012, 12:40 am »
Thinking laterally, when it comes to stopwatch functions we need to take a look over at the actual stopwatch thread on this same board. That thread has been going on since 2005 and even with inflation the most I've seen anyone willing to pay for an actual physical stopwatch is $25, and one member said that she would never use her phone for stopwatchy-type purposes. If they're not willing to pay $25 for hardware, will they be willing to pay 60% of that on a piece of software?

Unrelated, Cbandes, sorry to hear you dropped the app. That lack of enthusiasm is something I deal with daily and I can understand that it would be daunting to an outsider - even one who has lived among the proverbial wolves. The quiet reception that greeted the internship review program despite a press release campaign, publicizing it on multiple forums and 200+ hours of code was pretty disappointing, but not entirely unexpected. Unfortunately one of the main skills that makes for a successful stage manager - the ability to keep a cool head when surrounded by drama queens - is frequently integrated into our respective personalities. It's why SMNetwork has never really had a flame war or even troll issues. 5 pages is a long thread. 31 internship reviews in 9 months is pretty impressive.

I think there's two other issues at play here. First of all we do tend to view the actors as demanding the full extent of our damage control skills. They're the ones who need to be handled with kid gloves. When it comes to dealing with the crew and, to an extent, the designers, we have a different drama threshold. Diva fits from the cast are expected. Diva fits from our follow spot ops, not so much. We expect a kind of stiff-upper-lippedness from the crew and I think that may extend unconsciously to computer techs and software developers. Or to anyone who isn't an actor/singer/dancer.

Secondly, while amongst ourselves in hushed voices we may assert our creativity and necessity in a production, we have an awareness of how outside forces view us. Stage managers, or at least the outward "blocking taker/cue caller/secretary" roles are more susceptible than most of the production team to being entirely replaced by technology. Single purpose apps like this can fly under the radar, but a meta-stage management application may make some of us first wonder about job security before we think about job effectiveness. It means that we approach new technology with our first thought being "how can I perform better than this technology to ensure that I remain relevant?" I'm thinking this is not what you want when you're trying to demonstrate how a tool can make someone's life easier.


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Re: New Break-Time App: Take 10!
« Reply #11 on: Sep 24, 2012, 06:08 pm »
I checked out the app after reading this, and although I don't have a smartphone, it does look interesting. For someone like me, I would love to have this- it would just make life easier, and I could push a button instead of doing the math in my head, and therefore focus on other things.

At first the price jumped out at me as pretty pricey for a single app, but then I got to thinking about it in the way I rationalize other purchases... like clothes and shoes. I like to look at a price-per-wear scenario. This app cost me $15, but I would use it 5 days a week for 3 weeks of rehearsal, and already it is only costing me $1 a day after one show. Multiply this by the number of rehearsals/shows you do in a year, and it is really a good return on your money. I spend more on my shoes for rehearsals.

Come the day that I catch up with technology and get a smart phone, this App will be on the top of my list.

MatthewShiner

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Re: New Break-Time App: Take 10!
« Reply #12 on: Sep 24, 2012, 11:35 pm »
I think this app is a bit of a novelty, and not worth the 15.00 to me.

Perhaps, yes, we should be encouraging people to develop more software or apps for stage managers, but let's be honest, we are a niche and small market - and, let's be honest, we all have drastically different approaches to the job, and work on huge varieties of types of shows.  It's extremely hard to write a software program that could appeal to a large percentage of stage managers, and I would say impossible to write software program for every stage manager.   

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Re: New Break-Time App: Take 10!
« Reply #13 on: Sep 25, 2012, 12:42 am »
Which means you have to focus on an even smaller subset, and write for the people who are most likely to buy something. In other words, AEA members with enough disposable income to have Apple products anyhow.

Do other unions run on the same break pattern? I don't have an iphone or an emulator - can anyone who owns it confirm if the app could be reconfigured to count down other timeframes so that it could be useful for other unions? If not, the limitation has to be a deliberate choice in counterpoint to Matthew's paradox: there are so few of us that it is impossible to please us all. Our individual voices are still to loud. Stys can't satisfy all of the stage managers but we've got a reasonable shot at satisfying a small subset of them.

I think in some ways the SMA has been functioning on the same model all along. AEA US has an enormous member base but most of them are actors. They have the momentum to go nationwide but the tradeoff is that stage managers have to shout really loud to be heard. On the other hand SMA-US's attempts to branch outside of their very small sphere of NYC have been stymied by the extremely small size of the industry. They may well have determined after all these decades that their business model is better served by staying focused on the smaller NY community.

Another thought - I don't know about you guys, but based on my own phone usage, I've yet to find an app that has fully replaced its analog counterpart with the sole exceptions of the calendar and Evernote, both very large scale apps, and I've had assorted smartphones for about 6 years now. I treat apps like "travel size" versions to carry me through in a pinch. I think I'd have to be in a situation for months without my regular gear before I got into the habit of using apps for everything and it's very likely that by the end I'd be relieved to have my real tools back.

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Re: New Break-Time App: Take 10!
« Reply #14 on: Sep 25, 2012, 10:29 am »
And . . . here's a style challenge . . . when a director or cast seems me checking my stop watch or wrist watch for where we are on the break, versus me checking my iPhone (which could be used to text, check email or facebook) . . . there is subtle message being sent.

I know it's generational, but still, if I see an assistant deep into the cell phone, I don't think they are working on app, or checking the break time, I think they are texting . . . or facebooking.  But, I know this is truly a generational issue.
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Anything posted here as in my own personal opinion, and does not necessarily reflect the opinion of my employer - whomever they be at a given moment in time.

 

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