ARTICLE: NY TIMES saying no to college

[MatthewShiner]

It's a very interesting article, although almost all of the examples are in the hi-tech field.

I am wondering how many people in theater have had nontraditional un-college experiences.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/fashion/saying-no-to-college.html?_r=0&adxnnl=1&pagewanted=all&adxnnlx=1354689428-6jT0OJnNEXK1M/VAMqnUMA&gwh=085BA35F9CB5340E068FF8E46B76734E

[dallas10086]

I took a gap-year between my senior year of high school and my freshman year of college because I had to make sure myself that theatre was more than the hobby my parents perceived it to be. It was definitely one of the better decisions I've made, and I got into a fantastic school with conservatory training, but during my freshman year my family had to declare bankruptcy. There was no way they could pay $35,000 a year for out-of-state tuition, and I wasn't eligible for in-state status, and a paltry $3,000 scholarship wouldn't help. I felt broken-hearted that I had to leave, but I decided on a 'put your education in your own hands' approach. I took an internship, and another and another; I read everything I could about the field; I honed my skills in community theatre (still paid, of course); I took administrative side jobs so I could improve my computer skills. Last year when I was hired on as a full-time staff SM, I was only three years older than the other staff SM with a degree from UNCSA. I finally felt validated in what I saw as one of the few options for me to take towards reaching a career goal.

Just last week my husband (in college himself) asked me if after he graduated I wanted to be next. My initial response was "Yes!" But when I really tried to think of the reasons why, none of them were legitimate. Wasn't the point of the degree getting the job I had already? I don't know too many other regional theatres that pay more than the Equity house down the street, so I've moved my sights off college. But we did discuss that, should we leave Charlotte, I would enroll in the EMC program with an Equity theatre in order to get my card and move on to the next step.

I think the article makes several excellent points: no one wants to be saddled with that much debt, especially in this economy, if your skills can be honed in real-life experiences, but you must be passionate about your self-education. Obviously this won't translate if you want to become a doctor, but I would think that in most creative or emerging fields an alternative education could be perceived as a positive. The only hinderance is the last generation who went to college who are now managers - I'd say it's an even split between those that prefer a degree over experience and those who prefer experience over a degree. This past weekend I spoke with a SM who graduated with a degree a couple of years ago who is having extreme difficulty calling a play with 200 cues.

I prefer experience.

[nmno]

Yes, yes, we know, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, etc dropped out of college.  But take a look at the job listings for Apple, Facebook, Microsoft...  All of a sudden they find a degree valuable, even required.

[MatthewShiner]

yes, but how valuable in OUR job market is the college degree outside of education theater?

I question the logic behind saddling young stage managers with large student loan debt, that may eventually price them out of early career jobs.

I just don't feel like everyone needs to go to school, get an advance degree or a MFA to do this job - especially in this economic  climate.

[jcarey]

I am currently a 2nd year Stage Management student at UNCSA (University of North Carolina School of the Arts).

Growing up - especially towards the end of High School - I felt like I had to go to college because I was just taught that's what you do, that is the way to succeed. I ended up taking a year off in between HS and College, allowing me to get an Associates Degree, make sure this is really what I wanted to do, and choose a place to do it. When picking a place I was advised that (especially for theatre) it is not all about what you learn - anyone can teach the hard skills - it is so much more about where it leaves you after 4 years. What experience have you gained? What connections have you made? So, while I know and acknowledge that college is not completely necessary for working in our industry I greatly value the chance to gain specifically designed experience in a controlled place that also connects me to so many professionals in the industry. It is possible to do the same thing without college, but with more networking and a tad of luck.

Although I think there is starting to be a paradigm shift now that more people are looking for college degrees in theatre since they are offered regularly. Or at least that people with degrees are being hired more often. What do you guys think? Is there some truth to that?

[MatthewShiner]

I think a college degree maybe important earlier in your career and for jobs within educational enivronement - 5 to 10 years later, the paper (BA, BFA, OR MFA) doesn't really manner - in my experience.  Now, the education and contacts maybe worth that, but I am unsure if I would have made that just by working, as opposed to the 8 years of university education I have.

[On_Headset]

I'm currently working for the university where I scored my BFA, and the faculty break room has a series of lists with a list: every graduate of the undergrad program for the last decade. Any time a member of staff or faculty hears about a posting attained by a former student, we're encouraged to go to this list and add it.

So,  like:

John Doe, Tech/Prod '06, Asst. Production Manager at the Major And Important Centre for the Arts
Mary Sunshine, Script/Crit '07, Freelancer for Alt-Weekly Magazine
Jennifer Sweatpants, Devised '09, pursuing MFA at U Chicago

This list is then compiled and used internally for promotion, to find possible mentors for current students, for departmental records, etc.

The catch: those examples make it sound kind of promising and exciting, but it actually looks more like this.

John Doe, Tech/Prod '06, Unknown
John Doe, Acting '06, Unknown
John Doe, Devised '06, Unknown
John Doe, Acting '06, Acting coach (private practice)
John Doe, Design '06, Associate Designer at Local Summerstock Festival
John Doe, Script/Crit '06, English teacher
John Doe, Acting '06, Unknown
John Doe, Devised '06, Unknown
John Doe, Devised '06, Fringe show (2010)
John Doe, Tech/Prod '06, IATSE
John Doe, Conservatory '06, Unknown
John Doe, Tech/Prod '06, Unknown
John Doe, Design '06, Unknown
John Doe, Acting '06, Unknown
John Doe, Devised '06, Unknown

Now, context: it's absolutely true that theatre is often an impossibly tough nut to crack. All kinds of talented people show up and do all the right things and just don't make it for any number of perfectly sensible and perfectly ridiculous reasons.

But the problem I would identify is, well. Two worst-case scenarios.

Student A: You try to break into acting. You fail. So you go and do something else with your life.

Student B: You attend a High School for the Performing Arts, then you advance to a BFA program in Acting, where you spend ~$40,000 across four years, all of it as student loans. Then you try to make it in the Real World. You fail.

But you keep at it. You hire an Acting Coach. You spend hundreds of dollars to get better headshots. You work in menial jobs to pay rent. You occasionally get thrown a part, but you never advance higher than "Man with Moustache" or "Harem Girl (Non-Speaking)". After 5-6 years of stretching yourself, you get fed up and leave the industry and go do something else with your life.

But... you can't.

Because you're carrying that $40,000 in student debt, you'll never get financing for another degree. And even if you could, your education--that HS for the Performing Arts had you do the barest minimum possible in math and science--would only qualify you for programs in the Fine & Liberal Arts. (In fact, you aren't even qualified to enter many community college programs. You were hoping to do accounting without calculus, or social work without even the slightest background in statistics? Psychology without a background in biology? Not happening.) Somehow it seems unlikely that slapping four years of Creative Writing or Philosophy on top of your BFA will make you more employable.

But unless you buff up your qualifications, what are you going to do? You're basically only qualified to either wait tables or perform on stage, and since nobody is paying you to perform... And, anyhow, how do you combine these talents? Is your dream job really joining the waitstaff of a dinner theatre?

---

It's very poetic to talk about "better to have loved and lost", but somehow I think the latter person would, in retrospect, have happily slipped a little more general education into their High School and University experiences, rather than utterly binding themselves to an industry that simply had no use for them.

[bex]

I'm having a hard time right now convincing my parents that I don't need to go to grad school. Both of them have multiple degrees, and the fact that I have a BFA and no intention of doing anything else is mind-boggling to them. There are no jobs that I am applying for that I am not qualified for due to a lack of a master's degree (there are jobs for which I am not qualified for a variety of other reasons, but lack of higher education is not one of them), and that is SO FOREIGN to them.

[Samazon]

When I talked about my after college graduation plans with my parents (I graduate in May), the first option out of my dad's mouth was grad school and  needing  to start looking then. Neither of my parents hold graduate degrees but they immediately assumed I would do so.  The choice to get an undergraduate degree went straight to what degree and where, with not a single thought to the idea that  there was an option of  not going.

[Jessie_K]

Food for Thought:

I did get a University degree and for my entire employment in the USA, it never mattered at all.  It hardly ever even came up in conversation.

All that changed when I started getting jobs abroad. Many countries won't hire foreign workers (for skilled positions) without a university degree.

I didn't know that or think about that when getting my degree.  But it was my first overseas job that paid me enough to finally pay off all my debt.

(Yes, I know my situation is fairly unique and that MOST people don't leave their home country.)

[SMrose]

I am wondering how many people in theater have had nontraditional un-college experiences.

Quote by Matthew Shiner



Most of the stagehands I worked with did not have college degrees.  The skills learned to the degree (no pun intended) the stagehands needed to know weren't taught in the university I went to.  As a stagehand, I learned as an apprentice--a fantastic way to hone skills on a more one-to-one basis. I got to work with he newest lighting, staging and sound on tours that came through. I did get a BA in theatre (a bajillion years ago) and am glad I did.  I have looked at a few MFA programs in theatre but after decades of "working in the field" I found that none of them could teach me what I didn't already know (other than newer electronic/computer aided skills).  I can take these courses (such as CAD and newer versions of Microsoft office) at a local community college for way less money.

[David_McGraw]

Spending four years and tens of thousands of dollars to learn job skills is a waste of time, money, and... college.  I agree that on-the-job training is the fastest and most effective way to learn your job skills.  The root of the problem is that college is not vocational training (and I am supporter of vocational training).

College should be the arena to develop yourself as an independent learner and thinker.  Some fields may not require independent thinking and analysis.  And some people already possess those skills and don't need four more years of dedicated application.  Too many people go to college for the wrong reasons and therefore get very little out of the experience beyond debt.

In my opinion, the best education for a stage manager is a liberal arts curriculum.  You will have plenty of opportunities to learn stage management on the job.  I want stage managers who understand more than stage management and who have the skills (and confidence!) to quickly learn the the subject matter of our shows and to adapt to the backgrounds of our collaborators.

Don't go to college for information.  You can get all the information you need from a smart phone.  College is the opportunity to step outside your safety zone and really hone your learning skills.

[juliec]

I'm not an advocate advanced degrees just for the sake of having degrees.  That being said, I am very happy with my undergraduate degree.  It affords me the flexibility to move around, whether or not my current choices work out, as well as the option to pursue other or more specialized education if I ever feel that way.  When I chose to switch careers (into theater!), I felt I could at least fall back on my education since I really had no other related work-experience.

I think reality is more complicated than the hi-tech entrepreneurial mythos that is featured in the article leads us to believe.  Education's not right for all people, but it provides a great deal for many.  In general, I think college works the best for the ones that need a little more time "finding" themselves.  For those who fortuitously stumble upon their passion at a young age, education can be a hindrance.  I think the important thing is to be engaged and committed to the alternative, if there is one.

More than the content of my degree(s), college taught me to think from a number of different perspectives.  Ironically, the courses I'm the most grateful for are the ones that I thought were the most obscure and utterly useless when I was taking them.  At the time, I resisted reading Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, Marx, or Nietszche - but the more I look around in the world, I realize that practical knowledge of history and a sense of where modern thought came from, the humanities, and the arts are lost in our new-fangled, technologically advanced world.  These are texts I may never leisurely return to, so I am very glad that they were rammed down my throat and get some thoughtful analysis of them during the few years that I was willing to have them.  As I get older, I realize how important the humanities are for compassionate, empathetic thinking - and it's also the same qualities that make us identify with stories and performers onstage.  Don't so many stories resonate with The Odyssey?  Or provide another take on Romeo and Juliet?  Reference Dante's Hell?  This is what the theatrical arts are built on - so I don't think that was wasted time at all.  Especially since I read these works in my required classes, not in the specific fields I chose to study (which I will say were retrospectively LESS useful).

I also got to travel to many different countries, learn a few foreign languages, meet different kinds of people...  very interesting people.  Educational environments are often curated to expose you to a diverse group of people that as a specialized adult I have less exposure to - and I learned a great deal of respect for different viewpoints.  (I'll also observe that the examples that the article points out as having found success by dropping out both also: a) were driven to what they were going to do as an alternative (i.e., they had a choice and the chose the one they deemed better for them), b) have reputations for being rather singular in their mindset, relentless in a way (i.e., you might not necessarily want to be friends with them).  That's definitely not most of the people I know.)

Anyway, that's the value I got out of my college education.  I also spent a lot of time after that actively learning on the job, but I really appreciate that fundamental education, debt and all!

[LCSM]

Food for Thought:

Many countries won't hire foreign workers (for skilled positions) without a university degree.

Was that specifically a graduate degree, or undergrad as well?

[Jessie_K]

Food for Thought:

Many countries won't hire foreign workers (for skilled positions) without a university degree.

Was that specifically a graduate degree, or undergrad as well?

I have an undergraduate (4 year) degree.  The requirements vary from country to country and perhaps some would be OK with an associates (2 year) or shorter specialty degree.