\"Have you thought about accounting . . . ?\"

[On_Headset]

What's the alternative, though?

If BA/BFA programs need to become more selective, then the bottom line is that we need substantially fewer BA/BFA programs. (Considering the sheer volume of graduates who can't even get a foot on the professional ladder, you might even be able to cut the number by 50% and still have a critical mass of emerging artists.)

If schools need to be more aggressive about telling people "Sorry, you're just not suited to this field. Yes, you've just wasted two years of your life and your parents' money. Move on already.", okay--but I put it to you that the programs most likely to have these conversations (and to make them stick) are those who are already the most selective, and therefore the least likely to have large numbers of students who aren't up to snuff.

It's a wicked problem to try and solve.

[MatthewShiner]

Yes, there needs to be less programs, and the programs that are out there need to be more aggressive.  Seriously, do we need this many Stage Management training programs?

There was a lot of talk about this years ago about acting programs putting out students who went back to get MFAs who then became acting teachers who just put out more acting teachers . . . thus creating more acting programs.

We do it for actors all the time . . . we don't cast them, don't give them sizable roles,etc.  And we don't bat an eye about it.

Here’s the thing ladies and gentlemen, keeping students in programs gives those programs money, and, again, money makes the world go around.  Head counts are important.

On the flip side, an education program is one thing - it should be a place for people to try to become something to get the education - I don't think I would ever tell a "Student" they shouldn't be anything - I would outline a course of action for them to grow. 

And On_Headset you are very right about a huge issues about some of these training programs, the more competitive ones get better students so they don't have to have this conversations, and some of the weaker programs that struggle to fill the slots they need to fill - they can't kick someone out - because they need the people for funding or just to do the shows they need to do. 

[loebtmc]

acting programs putting out students who went back to get MFAs who then became acting teachers who just put out more acting teachers . . . thus creating more acting programs

[side note] - scares me, some of the actors I've seen who teach acting.....

[back on topic]

[Mac Calder]

I work with tonnes of new techs (some of which are older than me), and I tend to have an uncanny ability to pick who will last and who won't (I have picked the last 5 people who left and how long it would take before they left to within the month after the first day of meeting them).

I have found that most of these people know they are unsuited for the role they have picked after a very short length of time in the position, and it does not take more than a nudge to get them thinking about their career choices. Of the last 5 people who have left, I have talked to four of them about their career. I have never told them they were not cut out for the job, but have instead focused on where they want to be in a few years time. None of them wanted to be where they were right now, but had no idea how to get where they wanted to be. All four have moved into careers that they love and are a step closer to where they want to be. I think it is because people tend to enjoy what they are good at. No one enjoys being mediocre.

[loebtmc]

And, most of these folks are creative in other ways. I look for those things they do at which they are brilliant (or at least talented and interested) and reinforce it.

Sadly, this doesn't change those who, for example, crew for cash in college or small theater productions but really only care abt the paycheck, tiny as it is. But otherwise, I agree w Mac. Finding out what they do want or what they are really good at and love, and letting them develop in that direction (or complementing it) can often be a kinder, gentler way to set someone on a better path.

[VSM]

I, too, have been doing this for some time. I have never had the "you just aren't cutting it" speech. Rather, I have said these are the specific things I need from you. Here are sample templates and ideas from when I did these things. Questions? If so, then a conversation about specifics ensued. If not, then immediately after a shortcoming in an area of need, we had a conversation about what happened, why it happened and why it didn't do what I needed it to do. Not necessarily the "person" was insufficient, the "outcome" was.

This has worked more times than not...

[babens]

What's the alternative, though?

If schools need to be more aggressive about telling people "Sorry, you're just not suited to this field. Yes, you've just wasted two years of your life and your parents' money. Move on already.", okay--but I put it to you that the programs most likely to have these conversations (and to make them stick) are those who are already the most selective, and therefore the least likely to have large numbers of students who aren't up to snuff.

It's a wicked problem to try and solve.

The thing to bear in mind though is that many acting programs do have the sophomore year cut.   Matthew pointed out that we don't bat an eye about not casting an actor.  The entrance exam for United Scenic Artists can be fairly brutal as well (I have a very talented friend who did not pass it the first time she applied for membership due to a simple mistake she had made on her paperwork, showing that they are not willing to just accept anyone who applies). 

And it's not just in theatre training programs.  Many other disciplines will not hesitate to let one of their students know if they are not up to par and may even be forced out of the program.  I have seen it happen from the visual arts into business and science programs and many others throughout.

[weatherstone]

This is such a great topic, with really resonates with me.  Thanks for getting it started, Matthew!

On a show I was working on last summer, the PSM took me aside and gave me a "Get out of stage management" talk - but for reasons that are way different, and way more positive, than the ones Matthew outlined here (lack of talent, temperate, competence, etc.).  Read on . . .

Last year, I found myself looking for SM work in NYC after taking a multi-year detour into government / project management after university.  The detour, mind you, was taken because I just couldn't pull off paying the rent with the endless stream unpaid or low-paying PA or Showcase gigs here in the city right out of school.

So last summer, joining as the 3rd PA on a show's SM team off-Broadway, I found it a little jarring to be the oldest of the PA's by a number of years, and a tad older than the show's ASM.  Now the experience itself was great, our team got along swimmingly, and I can say I did a bang-up job in the process.

At the opening night party, the PSM took me aside and with genuine kindness and concern, started with something to the effect of, "I mean this in the most positive way possible, but a few days after you started with us, I wanted to say to you, 'What in the world are you doing here?'"  He went on to list all the things I was doing wonderfully and how pleased he was with me, yet ultimately his point was that with my substantive experiences in other fields, and with the film / TV production contacts I had built up here in NYC, I should flee/transition to those greener pastures.  He also noted that with 2 other PA's on this show (and others he's worked with), and with at least 2-3 ASM's he generally likes to bring onboard on productions, realistically it would be a while before I would gain some real traction professionally even with him putting in a good word for me elsewhere. 

Finally, after noting that after 20+ years working on and off-Broadway, the fact remains that even he needs to 'hustle' from show to show - the PSM then said that one of his closest friends is in his late 30s and is still trying to transition out of being a PA into steady ASM work - which really hit home with me. 

While my PSM's key point in that moment was, "Go into TV / film production, especially studio TV shows for their stability," I have to say that it really took some bluntness and candor on his part (for what I took as positive reasons in this case) to really get me thinking about expanding my horizons about what I like about stage management, and in what other professional contexts I can apply these same skills, talents, and passion.  Around the same time in this production, I was quickly becoming aware of (and lamenting) the facets of an 8-performance week, the weirdo schedule we all have, the insecurity of money and long-term scheduling, the toll it can take on my relationships, the endless PA cycle, etc. etc. etc. - so this really was another opinion (a welcomed one at that) which I never wouldn't have heard otherwise.

It was after this production that I started casting a wider net, as it were, in the types of work I was seeking, and later in the summer I accepted a job which I can really describe as my 'dream job' of the moment - half administrator, half PSM at a conservatory here in NYC, on a largely 9-to-5 schedule, with the chance to train our army of SM Interns, and with some room to grow or spin off to do something else. 

Although this "Have you thought about . . . " talk given to me wasn't exactly the one that Matthew or any of you have had in mind, I guess my point is that sometimes it may very well be the perfect invitation for a young SM, competent or not, to do some solid introspection about what else may lie in the horizon.  I am glad that someone took the time to say it to me relatively early on in my SM career, and that I didn't take it the wrong way.  I think I'm far happier, personally and professionally, as a result.

Thanks for listening.  Cheers!

-- weatherstone