\"Have you thought about accounting . . . ?\"

[MatthewShiner]

Okay, this one is for the more “seasoned” members of the crowd, but everyone might want to weigh in on this.

Often as a PSM, you will have a team, a ASM, a PA, a SM Intern (or two, or three . . . ); we are often not only leading a team of other experienced professionals, but put into a position of educator, which is one of the things I love about my job - and, to be honest, one of the things I miss about working in regional theatre full time.

But, there always comes a time when you get that one PA, one SM Intern, or, even an assistant stage manager, who, in your opinion, is just not cut out to make it in the business as a stage manager.

Let’s be honest, let’s cut through the niceness all the political correct bullcrap - not everyone who wants to be a stage manager, who has dreamed about doing this job has the talents, the chops, the right attitude and temperament to do the job.  And like so many other things in this business, I think there are things that can be taught, but I think there are things that you have or you don’t - and no amount of teaching or internships is going to give you everything you need.

Now, we are talking outside of high school or college, when a young stage manager is doing their first summer theatre job, an internship or PA-ship, would you or how would you pull someone aside and tell them, “You know, In think that this job may not be a perfect fit you?”  Or, do you let them go forth and suffer through for years to come.

Thoughts?

Post Merge: Feb 07, 2011, 09:09 am(Oh, and don't think because I asked the question I don't have my opinion, I do . . . and a very funny story to go with it . . . I wanted to get some conversation going . . . )

[DeeCap]

I actually had a conversation with my asm during pre-production.

The theatre I used to work at had two asm's and for a one person show I was working on, the PM gave me the weaker one, in the hopes that I could get her in shape. She didn't have the skills, the know-how, and was very, very shy.

I sat her down and I was very honest with her. I tried to be delicate, but still tell her that she wasn't cut out for stage management.  I explained to her that her weaknesses outnumbered her strengths. I said that I would be more than happy to help her, but she would have to come to me to ask for help. I told her that she should go ahead and prove me wrong and show me that she was meant to be a stage manager.  The conversation did upset her, but she told me that NO ONE ever told her what she was doing was wrong. 

She never asked for help. She didn't improve throughout the rehearsal/tech/run. The show was really easy, so I didn't depend on her that much.

She went on to intern at other theatres for two more years. Eventually she went to school to become a dental assistant.

[nmno]

I don't think I could ever give a "You aren't cut out for this" speech.  Perhaps a "A good stage manager does X,Y,Z and I'm concerned about your ability to do these things" since that's then putting the onus on them.  Maybe it's just a bad show for them, maybe they've got something going on that I don't know about...  I guess too I also trust the system that if they are THAT bad they'll cease being hired eventually.  (Perhaps I'm too optimistic, but then again, as long as they aren't working on my show, it's not my problem.)

[MatthewShiner]

She went on to intern at other theatres for two more years. Eventually she went to school to become a dental assistant.

And I wonder if you speech started that process?

Perhaps a "A good stage manager does X,Y,Z and I'm concerned about your ability to do these things"

  But again, isn't this just tip toeing around the problem. 

Let's be honest, not everyone is going to make a good Stage Manager or Assistant Stage Manager?  Should they be told this, rather then encouraged to continue into situations where they do not have the skill set to be a success? 

[DeeCap]

I don't know if my conversation started the process. All I know is that she kept on interning at other theatres for a few more years before she decided to do something else.

I didn't like having the conversation. I was hoping that it would do was to light a fire inside of her. Have her say "I'll show you" and then go out and prove me wrong.

[loebtmc]

This isn't only for beginners/school kids. I had a (union) asm, extraordinarily sweet woman but not used to working in a union setting, whom I tried to train, but she resisted me at every step. It came down to, I will never have her backstage w me again, and at every opportunity I tell her what an amazing (fill in the blank for other career) she is.

[missliz]

One of my first jobs post-college, I was a SM intern (I'd never SMed a non-school show before). When an ASM left mid-season, they put me in his track. I was definitely not prepared, and had little experience. I struggled through my first two shows as everyone expected me to know what I should be doing. And during a particularly miserable tech, I had a producer pull me aside, tell me I was terrible at my job and would never succeed in this field.

The fact is, I DIDN'T know what I was doing. But someone saying that was a great motivator to go out and read and learn everything I could. It was harsh, and it made me angry, but sometimes that's the best motivation to shape up or ship out.

[Rebbe]

Frankly when I’ve been in situations where I think the ASM should change paths, I’ve been too busy controlling the damage to discuss their aspirations, and too frustrated to want to.  I may let the production manager know why the person isn’t a good fit for future shows, and assume their lack of skill will push them out of the field eventually.  I try to work with them to improve their skills, and tailor tasks to their abilities and interests.  I hope to model the positive attitude and work ethic I wish they would demonstrate.  But I agree that some things just can’t be taught.

At the same time, I’ve known stage management types with whom I’ve had really lousy experiences with at one time, and found they’ve vastly improved a few years later.  So who am I to judge?

[MatthewShiner]

I too got this speech early in my career, from a stage manager who was supervising me - luckily I knew that this stage manager had a different style - and that my style and his style were never going to mesh.

Yes, there is no "right" way to stage manage, but there are skills, and there skill sets that a stage manager should have - people skills, time management skills, etc, that every stage manager has, or should have - and if they don't they, they should probably be told, "You know, you may find yourself fighting an uphill battle down the line."

Again, my personal thought on the matter is there are far too many stage managers flood the market, including some pretty bad ones . . . I am just trying to figure out a way to get the bad ones out early, for us, for them, for everyone.

[Rebbe]

Again, my personal thought on the matter is there are far too many stage managers flood the market, including some pretty bad ones . . . I am just trying to figure out a way to get the bad ones out early, for us, for them, for everyone.

I'd love it if there was a way.  However I tend to think those who most need to get into accounting are also those least likely to listen to their PSMs constructive criticism on the subject.

[RuthNY]

I spoke at an SM seminar class at CMU yesterday, and we talked about this a little. There were 15 student Stage Managers in attendance ranging from sophomores to grad students. All want to leave school and go out into the working world as SMs. So, doesn't getting the bad/unskilled ones out early, start THIS early--in school? Do the schools need/want the tuition so much that no one ever gets cut from an SM program for not having the "chops?" Or, is this simply too soon to tell if someone will mature well into the trade, or even mature well as an adult, for starters?

Again, my personal thought on the matter is there are far too many stage managers flood the market, including some pretty bad ones . . . I am just trying to figure out a way to get the bad ones out early, for us, for them, for everyone.

[MatthewShiner]

and in a school setting i think they are still learning . . . i am looking down the road . . .

[On_Headset]

Theatre BFA/BA programs tend to accept based on audition and portfolio components, but don't always stream students directly into a specialized program. (The program I attended required you do a common first year, then applied for specialization.) I noticed a weird push-pull effect going on.

The students who were straight-out-of-the-box well-suited to SM work were forced, by hook or by crook, into stage management roles. One or two professors actually specialized in the "I know you want to be an actor, but..." speech.

At the same time, the students who nobody was really sure what to do with (those who were not especially good actors, had no particular interest in playwriting, no talent for design or construction, not enough self-direction to do production management, not smart enough to keep up with academic cultural studies...) were also foisted off as ASMs and running crew in the hopes that this would at the very least keep them out of trouble.

The alternative would probably have been kicking them out of the program, which is unthinkable for any number of reasons. (Nobody wants to have the conversation ["I'm sorry, you're just not good enough."], nobody wants to admit they were wrong to accept someone into the program to begin with, it sucks to exit a program with half a degree and no prospect of doing anything with it, some people make surprising improvements in their upper years and it's unfair to prejudge everyone, etc.)

But an awful lot of these people, having spent 4 years as running crew and ASMs (and maybe gotten to "SM" a ten-minute fringe show), would be left without the skillset to do anything else with their degrees. It's kind of cruel, to think back on it.

[Celeste_SM]

I haven't had the exact "you aren't cut out for this" discussion, but I certainly have had conversations to try to help guide the thinking of somebody who believed they wanted to do this, but who experienced overwhelming stress and unhappiness whenever they were stage managing.   This has happened twice, and in both cases, I really wanted the person to succeed at what they wanted to do - but it didn't seem to me that they really wanted to stage manage. We had conversations about how you look at problems- I think that to enjoy stage managing, you have to look at a problem and think "Alrighty, now how can we fix  this?" rather than "Oh my gosh another problem, I hate this, it's impossible."  So eliciting that self-discovery was the way I brought up the topic.  In one case, the person moved to another career and is still very involved in academic theater. In another case, the person worked a few non-Equity tours and ended up quitting one early, under extreme stress, and has been doing non-theater related work since then. But it wouldn't surprise me if he went back for more stage managing, sooner or later.

[MatthewShiner]

At the same time, the students who nobody was really sure what to do with (those who were not especially good actors, had no particular interest in playwriting, no talent for design or construction, not enough self-direction to do production management, not smart enough to keep up with academic cultural studies...) were also foisted off as ASMs and running crew in the hopes that this would at the very least keep them out of trouble.

ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME.

Students who were didn't have a talent for something else were brushed into stage management . . .

this is why the market is flooded, in my opinion, with sub-standard, weak, under performing stage managers.  flat out.  the education system is flooding the market.

THIS ANGERS ME SO MUCH