Author Topic: Blacklist of companies for SMs?  (Read 10879 times)

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NomieRae

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Blacklist of companies for SMs?
« on: Jan 30, 2009, 10:26 pm »
Hi All--

I was talking to a friend of mine and we were wondering if there exists out there an e-blacklist of companies/producers/etc that have continually screwed a freelancing SM/ASM...

I know I've worked for dozens of companies, out of which maybe two I would post a word of warning to future SMs, but wouldn't it be an interesting tool to know (to an extent) what you're getting into before hand?

Is there something in place for AEA members? I would think it'd be easier in a union setting to call companies out on their behavior..

Any ideas/sites/etc welcome!
--Naomi
"First, I honor life, and with it my life in theatre." -- Jacques Burdick

PSMKay

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Re: Blacklist of companies for SMs?
« Reply #1 on: Jan 31, 2009, 07:19 pm »
This was once a feature in the previous incarnation of SMNet, but after the old site got unwieldy it was one of the features that I opted to discontinue.  It was a bit too much of a legal hassle in its last format.

It's something I'd consider bringing back for the next version of the site as I'm building it at the moment, but we'd have to be very careful about how we implement it as SMNet overall is currently a sole proprietership and I'd rather not get my butt sued.  (This is also something I'm working to change in the near future.)  However, I'd consider it if there's sufficient demand.

MatthewShiner

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Re: Blacklist of companies for SMs?
« Reply #2 on: Jan 31, 2009, 07:40 pm »
I would have a problem with this feature - as it turns into a he said/she said situation.  And I would rather see the SMNetwork sort of stay above frays like this.  I would rather see things like "Has anyone worked for . . . ", and have people respond via direct messages. 
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centaura

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Re: Blacklist of companies for SMs?
« Reply #3 on: Jan 31, 2009, 08:44 pm »
I totally agree with Matt.  As well, each person's experience is different.  I worked for a small company that was fine, for what it was.  But, I ran into a lot of folks who hated it - though in reality what they hated was being on tour - the company itself wasn't the real issue.  I'd hate to see a company get a bad rep, or have a bad report when it was a personal problem, and not a work environment problem.

-Centaura

yoyomankind

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Re: Blacklist of companies for SMs?
« Reply #4 on: Feb 03, 2009, 12:39 am »
I second what Centaura and Matt said.  I feel that as a stage manager, it is often very easy to fall into the trap of just looking at the downside of bad situations.  Matt's idea helps us keep our focus on more of a positive note, which I think is much more beneficial for not only this site, but also for thinking about our work environment, whether it be ideal or far from.

RParker2

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Re: Blacklist of companies for SMs?
« Reply #5 on: Feb 04, 2009, 01:30 am »
I was a big fan of looking on the bright side of each bad experience in order to learn and adapt and all that.  But a few months ago I worked for quite possibly the single most horrible, terrible, evil director on the planet, and now I would pay good money to see her blacklisted, both for my own personal satisfaction and to make sure no other poor SM ends up in my situation: completely degraded, offended, taken financial advantage of, and (temporarily) rethinking her career choice. 

Screw politeness, and forget the benefit of the doubt, stage managers have a right to know.

SMrose

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Re: Blacklist of companies for SMs?
« Reply #6 on: Feb 04, 2009, 08:50 am »
Screw politeness, and forget the benefit of the doubt, stage managers have a right to know.

I politely disagree.  Your best statement is to not work for that director or any company that hires him/her.  I decline politely with a line like: "I'd prefer not to work with (name of director) again." That usually tells a theatre company all they need to know.  In this way, I haven't "badmouthed" the director--no one can accuse me of any "slander".  The theatre world is small and word gets around (both ways).
We're all going to come across experiences in our careers both good and bad--I learn with each bad one to recognize "red flags" when they pop up and hopefully just select good places/people.
As for AEA--Last I knew: they have a list of producers/companies that members are not allowed to work for/with (i.e.: the company didn't pay a week of salary).  As a member, you always notify Equity that you'll be accepting a contract and the local rep will check to see that the company isn't on the "do not work for" list.

KMC

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Re: Blacklist of companies for SMs?
« Reply #7 on: Feb 04, 2009, 09:33 am »
I was a big fan of looking on the bright side of each bad experience in order to learn and adapt and all that.  But a few months ago I worked for quite possibly the single most horrible, terrible, evil director on the planet, and now I would pay good money to see her blacklisted, both for my own personal satisfaction and to make sure no other poor SM ends up in my situation: completely degraded, offended, taken financial advantage of, and (temporarily) rethinking her career choice. 

Screw politeness, and forget the benefit of the doubt, stage managers have a right to know.

I'd be very careful about what you say to whom.  I'm sure you already know this is an incredibly small business; word travels - quickly.  As with any situation in life, just because you don't care for someone doesn't mean that nobody cares for them.  And you never know when that director you've just badmouthed in an interview is the old college buddy of the interviewer.  While all of your comments may have been truthful, you've just talked yourself right out of a job. 

You mentioned looking on the bright side, this is a great philosophy.  And think - yes this experience was not pleasant, but I've learned x, y and z that I must do (or in some cases, must not do) moving forward to prevent a similar situation from happening in the future.
Get action. Do things; be sane; don’t fritter away your time; create, act, take a place wherever you are and be somebody; get action. -T. Roosevelt

Libby

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Re: Blacklist of companies for SMs?
« Reply #8 on: Feb 04, 2009, 09:57 am »
I can not agree or stress more on how small this community is. I've found that in almost every job I've worked there is always some one who knows so and so who hass worked with this person. And yes, the worse question someone you don't know very well can ask you is, "What do you think of ...". Stay as neutral as possible. Don't lie, just don't air every piece of dirty laundry. Wait until you know to whom you are talking before you lambaste someone.

Golden rule of thumb, as taught by my mother. If you can't say something nice don't say anything at all.



Scott

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Re: Blacklist of companies for SMs?
« Reply #9 on: Feb 04, 2009, 12:40 pm »
I think that warnings about "bad" companies can be useful and I don't have any ethical qualms about it.  Some producers do deserve to have their names  dragged through the mud.  (Discussion about a companies past practises is fair game on the Equity committee meetings that I've been involved in (when companies/producers are asking for concessions.))

Probably too many early-career folk on this board for this to be a useful and fair forum in this context.

BackstageJobs.com does offer a "Rants and Raves" forum for members (replaces thier old "Blacklist" forum) that see light traffic.

In general, such discussion might be better suited for in-person moments (SMA drink nights and other semi-informal gatherings).

But don't think that Producers aren't willing to bad-mouth any of us to their peers.  And that producers with questionable practises don't count on our tendency  (and actors especially) to keep our mouths shut.  Some of these people have been getting away like this for a long time.

P.S. And in response to the original posting -- your union rep. is the appropriate AEA context to register your complaint about questionable practises.  And checking with appropriate rep. before you sign a contract might be a good idea.
« Last Edit: Feb 04, 2009, 12:44 pm by Scott »

NomieRae

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Re: Blacklist of companies for SMs?
« Reply #10 on: Feb 04, 2009, 05:08 pm »
Thanks everyone for your input and ideas...

I understand no one wants to go around tattle-telling on past employers, but I was less interested in airing of personal qualms with a company (we all have those people we would rather not work with again) but more from a safety and payment standpoint. (Since I'm not Equity I don't have a union to back me up, warn me about non-payment..etc)

The only real reasons I wouldn't recommend a particular job/company to someone is if they A) had unsafe practices that could harm someone... or B) they didn't pay me or follow through on contractual obligations.

I think it's fair for someone who is beginning their career freelancing to have the opportunity to see companies' errors before they get in over their heads. On the flip side, I can see how it could turn very easily to a grievance board of bad experiences...
--Naomi
"First, I honor life, and with it my life in theatre." -- Jacques Burdick

BLee

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Re: Blacklist of companies for SMs?
« Reply #11 on: Feb 04, 2009, 06:59 pm »
Thanks everyone for your input and ideas...

I understand no one wants to go around tattle-telling on past employers, but I was less interested in airing of personal qualms with a company (we all have those people we would rather not work with again) but more from a safety and payment standpoint. (Since I'm not Equity I don't have a union to back me up, warn me about non-payment..etc)

The only real reasons I wouldn't recommend a particular job/company to someone is if they A) had unsafe practices that could harm someone... or B) they didn't pay me or follow through on contractual obligations.

I think it's fair for someone who is beginning their career freelancing to have the opportunity to see companies' errors before they get in over their heads. On the flip side, I can see how it could turn very easily to a grievance board of bad experiences...


In this respect, I would love to see such a list. I agree that it would need to be heavily monitored to be sure that they are non-personal complaints (non payment, broken contract, unfair/unsafe conditions). My only concern for posting individual threads asking about these companies is that the right person might not be around when the question is active. A list would provide access no matter when I'm looking at a job. Being non-union I am concerned that some of these companies may have questionable practices.

Oh, and thanks to the person who brought up the rants and raves at backstagejobs.com. This is helpful information as a new stage manager to not waste time. At least with some background I can either go in prepared or walk away before it gets too late.
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nmno

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Re: Blacklist of companies for SMs?
« Reply #12 on: Feb 05, 2009, 12:40 am »

I understand no one wants to go around tattle-telling on past employers, but I was less interested in airing of personal qualms with a company (we all have those people we would rather not work with again) but more from a safety and payment standpoint. (Since I'm not Equity I don't have a union to back me up, warn me about non-payment..etc)

If this is your concern, my suggestion would be to ask the company for a reference, ie. ask to be put in contact with another stage manager who has recently worked there.  Then, when you talk to them, you can get a sense of what it is like to work for that company, find out why they aren't working there any more.  If the company refuses, they probably don't have anyone who can speak positively about working there.

I recently worked for a theatre that I know had a bad reputation and might have been on "the list".  But they had a new Artistic Director (he was actually the one who brought me in) who was determined to turn things around and has been really successful.  It'd hate to see his company have to pay for the sins of the past.

Perhaps the compromise is a blind list that a moderator manages.  I can submit my information to the list saying, "I worked for ABC Theatre company and had a bad experience" Then a random stage manager can submit a question to List Moderator, "I'm being offered a job at ABC Theatre company, do you have any information" and List Mod can put random stage manager in touch with me.  Perhaps with some time, ABC Theatre doesn't seem so bad, perhaps the situation got resolved and I never thought to alert List Mod, etc. (Is this what is was on the old site?) 

Libby

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Re: Blacklist of companies for SMs?
« Reply #13 on: Feb 06, 2009, 01:42 pm »
Or, maybe there could be a section in people's profiles for theatres worked at. THat way, if someone doesn't want to talk about a theatre, they do not need to list that they worked there and people looking for info could just do a quick search and PM someone rather than doing it in a public forum.

I know since a lot on this board are freelance (rather than residential SMs) cetain people might have long lists, but it would still be relatively easy.

Just a thought.

Tempest

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Re: Blacklist of companies for SMs?
« Reply #14 on: Feb 06, 2009, 02:43 pm »
I like the idea of adding a (searchable) slot in the profile to list theatre's you've worked at.  And it would be good for more than just finding out if it was a "bad" theatre.  You could find out about unusual practices before you get started, or play, "Hey, do you know/remember?" with other people who have worked there.

I've worked a few places I wouldn't say were BAD, per se, but challenging, and I'd love to arm an SM going into that situation with a couple of tips and tricks to make their life a little smoother.
And I know I definitely wish someone had warned me that a particular director was narcoleptic!  That one was a shock.
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