Author Topic: New Tallescope ruling in UK  (Read 10298 times)

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Matt.L

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New Tallescope ruling in UK
« on: Mar 04, 2007, 07:21 am »
According to a technical manager i have worked with there is a new ruling in the uk that from later on this year all tallescopes will have to be motorised and control from the top of the tallescope, is this the same anywhere else? Surely its suicide?

Scott

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Re: New Tallescope ruling in UK
« Reply #1 on: Mar 04, 2007, 12:06 pm »
According to a technical manager i have worked with there is a new ruling in the uk that from later on this year all tallescopes will have to be motorised and control from the top of the tallescope, is this the same anywhere else? Surely its suicide?

Since (I dare say) most of us in the United States don't know what a tallescope is (some kind of fancy "torch"?), I suspect we will get over it.

Care to educate us?

Matt.L

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Re: New Tallescope ruling in UK
« Reply #2 on: Mar 04, 2007, 12:11 pm »
a tallescope is a mobile ladder normally extendable to 40+ feet, there on a base (2-3 meters x 1) consisting of 4 wheels. 

cuelight

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Re: New Tallescope ruling in UK
« Reply #3 on: Mar 04, 2007, 01:22 pm »
Tallescope - Aluminium vertical ladder with an adjustable base on wheels, used for erecting and focusing lanterns, reaching the grid etc.
They can also be known as "Genies" or "Winch-Ups".

Scott

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Re: New Tallescope ruling in UK
« Reply #4 on: Mar 04, 2007, 01:36 pm »

Ok.

Well, we have manual genies in the US but I have only to date ever seen them used for scenic/rigging purposes.

Any genies for people that I've come across are "motorized".  All "motorized" genies that I have seen have control from the top.

And...assuming we are talking about the same device...no one I know has yet committed suicide from one.


kiwitechgirl

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Re: New Tallescope ruling in UK
« Reply #5 on: Mar 04, 2007, 03:04 pm »
According to a technical manager i have worked with there is a new ruling in the uk that from later on this year all tallescopes will have to be motorised and control from the top of the tallescope, is this the same anywhere else? Surely its suicide?

I hadn't heard that one - I knew there had been moves afoot to ban moving tallies with someone in the basket, but motorised and controlled from the top? That gets rid of tallies as we know them and essentially means people will be converting to VPP motorised elevated work platforms - ie, what's commonly known as a Genie - which is different to a tallescope!  Are you sure you heard correctly?

- this is a tallescope

Scott

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Re: New Tallescope ruling in UK
« Reply #6 on: Mar 04, 2007, 04:09 pm »

Oh cool!  Thanks for posting that pic -- I have never seen that before (looks like could be used in strange configurations in truss!)

Not at all what we would call a genie here, as far as I know.

smsam

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Re: New Tallescope ruling in UK
« Reply #7 on: Mar 04, 2007, 04:22 pm »
Tallescopes are about the MOST common way of rigging/ focussing at height here in the UK (at small and big houses)! Thats quite strange you don't really have them in the US as they are VERY popular here.

As for the rumor I'm afraid, as much as I hate tallescopes, it's complete and utter rubbish! The government do not/ would not have the power to put a blanket ban on a product like that generally. There are currently various investigations, committees and research from all angles (HSE, ABTT, PLASA etc.) looking into the safety of moving a tallescope while someone's in the basket but abosultely no way will the government blanket-ban this product!

Sam x
« Last Edit: Mar 04, 2007, 04:24 pm by smsam »
Sam x

Matt.L

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Re: New Tallescope ruling in UK
« Reply #8 on: Mar 04, 2007, 04:25 pm »
its not a cert thing bout motorisation but iv been talking to a few technical managers around cambridge (UK) and they say that HandS want to bring it in! driving one of those around isnt safe at all. they arent that easy to manuvure in the first place

  

Matt.L

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Re: New Tallescope ruling in UK
« Reply #9 on: Mar 04, 2007, 04:29 pm »
I agree with the balnket ban though, that would never happen they are very popular in UK, suprised US doesnt use them

kiwitechgirl

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Re: New Tallescope ruling in UK
« Reply #10 on: Mar 04, 2007, 07:15 pm »
its not a cert thing bout motorisation but iv been talking to a few technical managers around cambridge (UK) and they say that HandS want to bring it in! driving one of those around isnt safe at all. they arent that easy to manuvure in the first place 

Driving one?!  I've never had any trouble maneuvering a tallescope around, even by myself (and I'm 5'2").  I've done my fair share of focusing and rigging off one, being moved around while I'm in the basket.  If I'm nowhere near the edge of the stage I'm happy to have one person at the base, shifting it, but if I'm anywhere near the edge then two people is necessary.  This is with the basket not raised beyond the minimum (we trim our bars to the scope - happens to be just the right height!); with it raised any I don't really like moving around in the basket.  I think the advantage of a 'scope over a genie/MEWP is the weight, and the fact that you don't need a IPAF certificate to use it (I know, I know, you don't HAVE to have one for a MEWP but it's recommended...).  I'm not saying I don't prefer a genie, but I very much doubt the 'scope will be outlawed, there'd be too much of an outcry.

Aerial

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Re: New Tallescope ruling in UK
« Reply #11 on: Mar 05, 2007, 01:03 am »
It's not so much that we don't have them...we just don't call them tallescopes. Most that I've encountered lately have been motorized, but when I was in high school we had a manual one like the one in the picture someone posted above.  I'd just never heard the term tallescope.  We always called it the cherry-picker, and the motorized ones genies.

Mac Calder

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Re: New Tallescope ruling in UK
« Reply #12 on: Mar 05, 2007, 03:03 am »
A Genie is NOT a motorised Tallescope. Genie is a shortened brand name for Genie Lift, a company that manufactures Motorised Elevated Work Platforms.

Tallescope is a ladder with a base and a basket at the top, as illustrated - their closest comparison would be a scaff tower.

UK OH&S tends to revolve arround everyones favorite piece of paper - the Risk Assessment. There is very little that is "Banned" however they do put forth recomendations and standards. What some people in the UK are trying to do is 'prove' that moving someone in a tallescope is bad practice - so that in a court, if littigation were to ensue, companies encouraging (or rather, not discouraging) this action would be liable. A good example is the use of a ladder - According to UK legislation, a ladder would not be considered an Elevated Work Platform. Therefore, the only situation where use of a ladder should be considered is when accessing a suitable platform, or when all other alternatives are exhausted. There is no law that says "You will not work up ladders" - but rather legislation that defines which work platform should be used for a job - which puts ladders at the bottom.

There are two main schools of thought around moving in the tallescope basket - One school is that the tallescope being moved whilst someone is in the basket could cause the tallescope to overballance, yadda yadda yadda. The other school of thought is that the most dangerous part of Tallescope use is climbing into the basket. I am firmly in the later group. I hate climbing in and out of tallescope baskets.

For those interested:

Quote from: Working at height regulations, UK, 2005
SCHEDULE 3Regulation 8(b)


REQUIREMENTS FOR WORKING PLATFORMS



PART 1
REQUIREMENTS FOR ALL WORKING PLATFORMS
Interpretation
     1. In this Schedule, "supporting structure" means any structure used for the purpose of supporting a working platform and includes any plant used for that purpose.

Condition of surfaces
     2. Any surface upon which any supporting structure rests shall be stable, of sufficient strength and of suitable composition safely to support the supporting structure, the working platform and any loading intended to be placed on the working platform.

Stability of supporting structure
     3. Any supporting structure shall -

(a) be suitable and of sufficient strength and rigidity for the purpose for which it is being used;

(b) in the case of a wheeled structure, be prevented by appropriate devices from moving inadvertently during work at height;

(c) in other cases, be prevented from slipping by secure attachment to the bearing surface or to another structure, provision of an effective anti-slip device or by other means of equivalent effectiveness;

(d) be stable while being erected, used and dismantled; and

(e) when altered or modified, be so altered or modified as to ensure that it remains stable.

Stability of working platforms
     4. A working platform shall -


(a) be suitable and of sufficient strength and rigidity for the purpose or purposes for which it is intended to be used or is being used;

(b) be so erected and used as to ensure that its components do not become accidentally displaced so as to endanger any person;

(c) when altered or modified, be so altered or modified as to ensure that it remains stable; and

(d) be dismantled in such a way as to prevent accidental displacement.

Safety on working platforms
     5. A working platform shall -


(a) be of sufficient dimensions to permit the safe passage of persons and the safe use of any plant or materials required to be used and to provide a safe working area having regard to the work being carried out there;

(b) possess a suitable surface and, in particular, be so constructed that the surface of the working platform has no gap -

(i) through which a person could fall;

(ii) through which any material or object could fall and injure a person; or

(iii) giving rise to other risk of injury to any person, unless measures have been taken to protect persons against such risk; and

(c) be so erected and used, and maintained in such condition, as to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable -


(i) the risk of slipping or tripping; or

(ii) any person being caught between the working platform and any adjacent structure.


Loading
     6. A working platform and any supporting structure shall not be loaded so as to give rise to a risk of collapse or to any deformation which could affect its safe use.


jwl_868

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Re: New Tallescope ruling in UK
« Reply #13 on: Mar 05, 2007, 01:02 pm »
Genie makes a variety of lifts – scissors lifts, boom lifts, elevated work platforms – so use the term “Genie lift” cautiously.  The “Genie” at one facility may not be the type of “Genie” at another facility.

US OSHA rules (29 Code of Federal Regulations) can be somewhat confusing for this general equipment primarily because scissors lifts fall under the “scaffolding” regulations, but all of the other lifts fall under the “aerial lift” regulations.  The most significant difference as I understand it is that a scissors lift with proper railings is considered to meet the fall protection standard and tieing-off or providing personal fall protection is not necessary.  All of the other lifts require some sort of tieing off.  (Ladders are under a separate set of rules.) 

For all practical purposes, if the lift is occupied and extended, it must not be moved.  (There is a very narrow range of exceptions.)  An occupied ladder must not be moved.

It appears that a tallescope used in the US, with its extending boom, is under the US OSHA aerial lift regulations, and therefore, cannot be moved if it is occupied.


http://www.osha.gov/
From 29 CFR 1926:
1926.452(w) [Mobile scaffolds] (6)
Employees shall not be allowed to ride on scaffolds unless the following conditions exist:
1926.452(w)(6)(i) The surface on which the scaffold is being moved is within 3 degrees of level, and free of pits, holes, and obstructions;
1926.452(w)(6)(ii) The height to base width ratio of the scaffold during movement is two to one or less, unless the scaffold is designed and constructed to meet or exceed nationally recognized stability test requirements such as those listed in paragraph (x) of Appendix A to this subpart (ANSI/SIA A92.5 and A92.6);
1926.452(w)(6)(iii) Outrigger frames, when used, are installed on both sides of the scaffold;
1926.452(w)(6)(iv) When power systems are used, the propelling force is applied directly to the wheels, and does not produce a speed in excess of 1 foot per second (.3 mps); and
1926.452(w)(6)(v) No employee is on any part of the scaffold which extends outward beyond the wheels, casters, or other supports.


1926.1053   Ladders.
(b)[Use]…(11) Ladders shall not be moved, shifted, or extended while occupied.

Didn’t have a chance to copy the aerial lift regulations on the subject, but that can be readily found at the OSHA site.

Joe

kjdiehl

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Re: New Tallescope ruling in UK
« Reply #14 on: Apr 05, 2007, 12:38 pm »
Interesting. I don't think I've ever seen a tallescope here either. They look like a freakin deathtrap to me, frankly. You Brits are suicidal crackpots! The sketchiest thing about it is that it looks like I could knock it over by breathing on it, especially if it was extended very high. This being due to having almost no weight at the bottom, and not a very wide base either. Stuff commonly used here:

Ladder. Aluminum & fiberglass most common. straight extension ladders and folding A-frame ladders. Also, the "Little Giant" brand of pain in the ass. Only as safe as you make it. ie, not very safe at all- easy to topple. Electricians have to have good balance. You have to come down to move it.

A-Frame rolling extension trestle. Large wooden A frame ladder on wide wheeled base with straight ladder that extends up the middle, usually up to 30'. Feels very sway-y at top but the wide heavy base makes it reasonably impossible to topple. This is designed to roll with a person on the top, with at least 2 people pushing at the bottom and that's how I see them used. I see these very infrequently any more.

Scaffolding platform. Aluminum or steel. usually roughly with a 4x8 footprint, plus outriggers at bottom providing wider base. Designed to be moved with people riding, 2-4 people pushing at bottom, though depending on the situation some rules may require people to descend a couple levels but not have to come down completely. Because of lack of weight at bottom, they feel slightly more tippable, but with proper use of outriggers they should be safe.

Genie bucket lift. motorized up-down single-person lift. They will not go up without outriggers properly installed. They go very high and can feel quite sway-y at top but are very stable due to enormous weight at bottom. They are wheeled and can be moved with person in bucket, but rules are usually against this. However, most places do it anyway. There are a few expensive models which can be driven by the operator in the bucket while extended, but they don't usually go as high.

Genie scissor platform lift. motorized up-down and drivable multi-person work platform. These rock. They are the mamma-jamma of elevated work devices. Designed to be driven while up high- yes you could tip one, but they are very stable due to enormous weight at bottom. I want one.
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