Author Topic: ARTICLE: Sleep no more UNPAID interns  (Read 5343 times)

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MatthewShiner

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ARTICLE: Sleep no more UNPAID interns
« on: Dec 11, 2013, 11:29 am »


I find this VERY disturbing for a hit commercial run show.  (Hit as in sold out, with no marketing . . . and mind, no union employees).

http://www.ibtimes.com/former-sleep-no-more-interns-say-immersive-nyc-megahit-offers-little-educational-benefit-1499418
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BARussell

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Re: ARTICLE: Sleep no more UNPAID interns
« Reply #1 on: Dec 12, 2013, 01:00 pm »
I have acquaintance from college who just ended her  SM Intern at Sleep-No-More I haven't heard her opinion on it, but from her Facebook she seemed to enjoy it. (Maybe this was here??) Mind you she is not really a trained or experienced SM so maybe the had some factor into her choosing it or their selection process. Regardless this is just pathetic, there is just no excuse anymore, pay people or don't hire them. Privilege, experience, and connections are wonderful but they are no longer something you can rely on, these things need to change.
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KMC

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Re: ARTICLE: Sleep no more UNPAID interns
« Reply #2 on: Dec 12, 2013, 04:12 pm »
Regardless this is just pathetic, there is just no excuse anymore, pay people or don't hire them. Privilege, experience, and connections are wonderful but they are no longer something you can rely on, these things need to change.

If you were hiring someone to mow your lawn and one person was willing to do it for $50 while another was willing to do it for $0, which person would you choose? 
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Caroline Naveen

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Re: ARTICLE: Sleep no more UNPAID interns
« Reply #3 on: Dec 13, 2013, 12:05 am »
It's disturbing alright, but I feel like if these interns were unhappy with their experience in the production they should have gone directly to the theatre management and the people in charge instead of to the press. Wouldn't it have ended better for everyone if they simply expressed their concerns to those in charge and if the situation wasn't address look for work elsewhere? That course of action would have been more professional, however I wasn't there and don't know the situation so therefore can not judge accurately...just a thought. 

MatthewShiner

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Re: ARTICLE: Sleep no more UNPAID interns
« Reply #4 on: Dec 13, 2013, 01:15 am »
Caroline, those are the people who hired them.  There is no one to complain to other the police or labor board, or go public.  And the trend nationwide, is to go public to shame these companies – weather it be a big magazine company, film companies or theaters – to shame these companies to do what is doing is right, and pay a decent wage.

But here's the thing, in NYC the market is saturated with people who want to be stage managers, but lack the resume credit to get a high paying jobs.

Jobs in NYC are layered.
There are $3,000 a week job on musicals.
$1800-2500 on other Broadway jobs.
A few LORT contracts around 800-1200.
Top Tier Off Broadway around 450-1000.
There are AEA stage managers, those who have extensive regional credit experiences, trying to break into the high paying world of commercial theater who are willing to PA on a commercial show for 150-400 a week (Without benefits, other than perhaps a metro card) for the opportunity to break into the world of of those 1800-3000 a week category jobs.

So, now imagine you are just out of school, 22-25 years old, a young resume without big show credits - desperate to build up your resume - why not take an internship - everyone else around you is doing it.

Then you find out, it's not internship, but really just unpaid labor - you have two options - walk away from the job or suffer. 

Now, if you complain, you run the risk of just being let go (AND BEING LABELED A TROUBLE MAKER).   This town, although very big, is pretty small as far as people knowing each other - someone has a rough day backstage as ASM, people are talking about it drinks that night - people who are four theaters away.  A SM gets laid off, text messages flurry around.  No GM/Producer wants to hire a trouble maker, or someone who rocks the boat - so many, many, many people suffer in terrible positions in the hopes that this was pass and they will find another job.

So people, having no other job offers, take a non-paying job to bide their time as they are applying for 40 other jobs a week.  (In NYC, even when ou have a paying job, you are looking for something better, or something that could lead to better - it's just a simple fact of life of this business.)

You could walk away, but then you can't really list is as job reference.  So, then any and all work you did to build you you resume is for naught.


So, you suffer . . . why?  Because maybe, just maybe, if you stay long enough you might get a paid position.    But chances are there are 12 other non-paid interns also going for that job.   Or this resume credit will look good enough to help you get a paid position . . . someday.

Management loves this, they get people to do work for free instead of pay people - saying they are educating them.  What business wouldn't love this???   And it's the norm in NYC.   (And trust me, I am sure they are learning something - but I have been doing this job for 25 years professionally, and I learn something on every job I do - doesn't mean I shouldn't get paid for what I do.)

See, this is a completely non-union show, the can just make up the rules as they want, but the need to follow the laws.  And, they are trying to use the "intern" label as taking relatively young labor without paying them a living wage.  Mind you, this is a huge hit in NYC, as a downtown theatrical experience, with tickets from 80-130 – with up to nine shows a week.  This is not a non-profit, 40 seat theater.  (Mind you, I don’t feel unpaid internships as allowed anywhere).

So, here’s the thing . . . at the end of the day, theater is a business like any other business, but because of the huge risk, and high costs . . . money is always tight (or going back to the investors in the commercial world).  This is a world we people continue to push forward the notion that people need to suffer for their “Art” – do a show for free.  Everyone needs to work their way up top.  That’s the crazy world of the professional stage management world in NYC.

(And, this is one reason why theater got unionized in the past . . . because of GMS and Producers who took advantage of the workers).
« Last Edit: Dec 13, 2013, 01:26 am by MatthewShiner »
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ejsmith3130

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Re: ARTICLE: Sleep no more UNPAID interns
« Reply #5 on: Dec 13, 2013, 09:58 pm »
I think that getting rid of unpaid internships TOTALLY is not a good idea... but they need to be administered correctly. A way that is kind of a pipe dream, I admit, would be to only offer unpaid internships to Students specifically, that would arrange for credit through their educational institution. I know that when I worked an unpaid internship in college I had to submit reports to the school each week, signed by my supervisor at the theatre detailing the things I did, my hours, and what I was learning. This way, the school had a way of keeping tabs on my educational internship, and the theatre was being held responsible as well.

After college I didn't work for free anymore. I have worked for next to nothing as an intern... $125 a week  and housing is not a living wage, but it sure taught me how to budget!

I have the advantage as well however, of having no desire to work in NYC. Everything I have applied for and worked has been regional stuff before I moved to Philly, so I never really felt the need to take unpaid work. There is a little more pressure here, with fringe projects and the like, but I have made the decision that working a job for nothing hurts my career from moving forward at this point, in this market.

I wonder if anyone else outside of the NYC bubble has experienced this. I do think where you are and the jobs available/amount of people applying has something to do with this as Matthew shows with his breakdown of the NYC market.

MatthewShiner

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Re: ARTICLE: Sleep no more UNPAID interns
« Reply #6 on: Dec 14, 2013, 07:00 pm »
No, unpaid internships have their place, if it is truly an educational experience, and they are able to do their day to day business WITHOUT you.

The reality is, too many internships are abusive.

And $150 a week plus housing, although not a living wage, it is not a bad internship salary.
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jbreezy

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Re: ARTICLE: Sleep no more UNPAID interns
« Reply #7 on: Dec 14, 2013, 11:12 pm »
No, unpaid internships have their place, if it is truly an educational experience, and they are able to do their day to day business WITHOUT you.... And $150 a week plus housing, although not a living wage, it is not a bad internship salary.

A lot of internships are unattainable if you don't already live and learn in a major city. I will never have in internship in NYC or Chicago because I don't already live in NYC or Chicago. Not that I would want to be  battling on that turf: the majority of those theatres do not pay a dime for full-time work, and would laugh as they shut the door in your face. I tried that route once. N'ermore.

I agree wholeheartedly with Matthew:  unpaid internships have their place. If I am doing the job of an ASM or a PA, I should be paid. If I am sitting there and am entirely expendable to the process, don't pay me.I can even understand situations where course credit is counted as compensation. But, sadly, this is not the case in many situations.

But even in regional theatres, places where I would have to pick up and move my entire life for 3-12 months to work at, a lot of their programs are unpaid and without the offer of housing.

What this causes, from my perspective, is a lot of missed learning opportunity for those who cannot afford an unpaid (or even excessively low-paid) internship. I am not from a family that can support me going to live and work for free or free-ish for 3-12 months. This causes a gap between the number of people wanting to take an internship at a highly reputable theatre and the number of people fiscally able to take said position. You have to have internships to go anywhere in the business; but, in an unconventional manner, you have to buy your way into an internship. That is a messed up system.

As someone living the intern life, all of the jobs that are battled for tooth-and-nail pay $150. Housing is a massive bonus, if you are one of the lucky few. I have been lucky enough to be offered positions at companies that offer housing and a stipend. But it is really hard to live on $100 a week, even when you aren't paying for housing and utilities. I couldn't fathom doing it for free, even for the educational benefits. 
« Last Edit: Dec 14, 2013, 11:19 pm by jbreezy »
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BARussell

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Re: ARTICLE: Sleep no more UNPAID interns
« Reply #8 on: Dec 15, 2013, 08:02 pm »
No, unpaid internships have their place, if it is truly an educational experience, and they are able to do their day to day business WITHOUT you.... And $150 a week plus housing, although not a living wage, it is not a bad internship salary.

A lot of internships are unattainable if you don't already live and learn in a major city. I will never have in internship in NYC or Chicago because I don't already live in NYC or Chicago.

That is my major problem with these companies. In my experience the theatres that don't pay people also never offer truly educational experiences they rely on the interns to make the company function, mostly due to their lack of funds. Maybe if you are in a major city they could be very flexible and work around your schedule and only use you for learning opportunities but I feel like even in major cities that doesn't happen. But otherwise people cant move to a new place for an unpaid internship Or even a part-time one.  You should be benefiting more than the company and I find that is rarely if ever the case with these unpaids. But can anyone who has done an unpaid internship, truly liked it, and felt like they shouldn't have been paid for what they did during it? That it was truly just an educational experience?

I mean if I took an unpaid internship I would expect to work around my schedule, for as long or as little as was necessary to learn what I needed to learn, I wouldn't sit around in 8 hour rehearsals all day, it's just not practical. I have never done an unpaid so I don't know, I have been fortunate enough to only take hourly internships cause I don't think i would have survived otherwise.
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