Author Topic: ARTICLE: Low Pay/No Pay (UK article, interesting read)  (Read 5675 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

MatthewShiner

  • Forum Moderators
  • *****
  • Posts: 2478
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Affiliations: AEA, SMA
  • Current Gig: Freelance Stage Manager; Faculty for UMKC
  • Experience: Professional
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Anything posted here as in my own personal opinion, and does not necessarily reflect the opinion of my employer - whomever they be at a given moment in time.

On_Headset

  • Permanent Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 402
    • View Profile
  • Experience: College/Graduate
Re: ARTICLE: Low Pay/No Pay (UK article, interesting read)
« Reply #1 on: Jun 12, 2013, 09:05 am »
Within my own city, there's a growing trend towards "converting" Fringe shows: during the last pure-Fringe festival, a good dozen or so productions were picked up by larger companies for polished remounts in larger venues. (With luxuries like designers, salaries, professional PR, etc.)

And on the one hand, this appeals to me. Theatre is one of the most meritocratic professions in the world: if you don't pull your weight, your phone will stop ringing. and this process of upgrading from Fringe to "real" theatre definitely appeals to that side of my personality. Put on a good show and the money will find you. I like that.

But I'm also thinking about some of the people I graduated with.

The summer we graduated, 4 of them got together and produced a Fringe show.

It wasn't very good.

And that's not surprising. On any other career path, we wouldn't bat an eyelid if someone took their first kick at the can and failed: of course you're going to make mistakes and need to learn and be trained by others and gradually master a skillset. That's why we have internships/apprenticeships/Junior and Assistant positions/etc. Even if you've got a specialized degree in the field, the assumption is that you're going to need time to master "real-world" skills and gradually get into a position of mastery.

But for actors, well. Some of them are going to land a small number of apprenticeships and artistic internships and be invited to join Junior Companies, and they'll earn their stripes that way.

Many of them don't. These 4 students had to go straight into the "workplace". And when the Fringe show tanked, their careers effectively ended. This was demoralizing and frustrating and life-shattering in many ways: your first "real" production, and you blew it. I'm led to understand that they lost about $2000 on the adventure, factoring in the Fringe fees, production expenses, the shifts they had to cancel at work to rehearse and perform, publicity, photography, and all the rest.

The good news is that one of them was able to recover. She's currently teaches improv classes while promising herself she'll break into theatre eventually.

The other three have left the industry.

They weren't untalented as such, and given time to mature as artists might have made worthwhile contributions. If we treated actors the same way we treat accountants and lawyers (take your time, master your skillset gradually, here's an apprenticeship, etc.), they might have been able to tough it out, and could have become useful, productive and interesting members of the artistic communities.

If they had had even just a trickle of income or profit while working on that Fringe show, it might not have ended as it did. But the business model doesn't support it: either your show is profitable, or you don't get paid. They tried, and all it got them was credit card debt equivalent to a month's rent apiece--making it much harder to try again, even if you can get over the demoralization and the failure and the discouragement.

Instead they're paying down their student loans with the low-skill service jobs which are the only positions they're qualified to land after a 4-year BFA.

I don't think that's good for the industry, for the economy, or for the artistic community.

MatthewShiner

  • Forum Moderators
  • *****
  • Posts: 2478
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Affiliations: AEA, SMA
  • Current Gig: Freelance Stage Manager; Faculty for UMKC
  • Experience: Professional
Re: ARTICLE: Low Pay/No Pay (UK article, interesting read)
« Reply #2 on: Jun 12, 2013, 09:24 am »
It's funny how so many people in our business look down on what is traditionally called "community theater" - theater done by those who love to do theater for no pay - but there is great respect for those who do shows at the "fringe" festivals - theater done by those who love to do theater and often PAY for the opportunity to do it.

Interesting.

All in all, if you are hired to do a job, regardless of what it is, you should be paid at least minimum wage. Stop devaluing what you do - don't give it away.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Anything posted here as in my own personal opinion, and does not necessarily reflect the opinion of my employer - whomever they be at a given moment in time.

BARussell

  • SM Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 193
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Current Gig: Assistant to the Producers at Goodspeed Musicals
  • Experience: Professional
Re: ARTICLE: Low Pay/No Pay (UK article, interesting read)
« Reply #3 on: Jun 12, 2013, 09:57 am »
All in all, if you are hired to do a job, regardless of what it is, you should be paid at least minimum wage. Stop devaluing what you do - don't give it away.

It's funny how hard it is to make people (and more often yourself) realize that. We have been so trained to believe that what we do is so different from all other jobs and that it's okay to make low or no money for it. We don't deserve a living wage, or benefits, or housing, or travel, or per diem, etc. Then when you do realize it companies are shocked when you ask for it. Our whole community needs to grow a little, we won't be able to survive in a world where we are taken advantage of by people who think they can control us because we "love" the job.
"We don't negotiate with weirdos!"

Caroline Naveen

  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 56
    • View Profile
  • Experience: High School
Re: ARTICLE: Low Pay/No Pay (UK article, interesting read)
« Reply #4 on: Jun 12, 2013, 11:11 am »
These 4 students had to go straight into the "workplace". And when the Fringe show tanked, their careers effectively ended. This was demoralizing and frustrating and life-shattering in many ways: your first "real" production, and you blew it.

That's so sad! This is my worst nightmare as I was kind of thrown into stage management because everyone in this area (for the most part) wants to be an actor. I remember one really bad mess up I had as a SM during one of my first shows. It knocked me completely off the horse, and I remember being so sick to my stomach after arriving home. I kept going over and over the mistake in my head for days thinking about how easily it could have been avoided. Then a week or so later one of my SM mentors said to me "Sometimes the best thing you can do is let it go and learn from it." So that's what I did and it's helped me in the long run. I can assure you I have never repeated the same mistake twice.

It's still a fear of mine that one day I'll make a horrible mistake that I might not be able to bounce back from, but coming back shows true character and a will to succeed. My first day back I felt so embarrassed but despite everything I was glad I went back, and I threw myself into my job like never before. I know the situation was different with your friends but I felt like I should share that story to maybe help someone else in the future, who might be struggling with a mistake as an SM. "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again!" For me bouncing back from rejection, failure, mistakes, and problems should be the key words in the Stage Manager's vocabulary. :)

On_Headset

  • Permanent Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 402
    • View Profile
  • Experience: College/Graduate
Re: ARTICLE: Low Pay/No Pay (UK article, interesting read)
« Reply #5 on: Jun 12, 2013, 01:10 pm »
If it's any comfort at all, the rules which apply to actors don't apply to stage managers, technicians, designers or arts administrators. We're allowed to screw up: in fact, when we do screw up, it's usually the actors who have to wear the damage.

I'd go so far as to say that, short of criminal negligence or deliberate sabotage, there's almost nothing someone in this category (SMs, technicians, etc.) could do to end their career in a single bound. Even in the worst-case scenarios (you screw up and someone dies as a direct result), you can recover. (In fact, you're way more likely to end your career by being rude to the wrong person than you are by making errors. Food for thought!)

Conversely, there are circumstances from which an actor, director or playwright simply will never recover. Some flops are just so floppy, some performances are just so bad, some divas are just so divaish...

KMC

  • Forum Moderators
  • *****
  • Posts: 963
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Current Gig: Project Manager, Systems Integration
  • Experience: Former SM
Re: ARTICLE: Low Pay/No Pay (UK article, interesting read)
« Reply #6 on: Jun 12, 2013, 01:59 pm »
It's funny how hard it is to make people (and more often yourself) realize that. We have been so trained to believe that what we do is so different from all other jobs and that it's okay to make low or no money for it. We don't deserve a living wage, or benefits, or housing, or travel, or per diem, etc. Then when you do realize it companies are shocked when you ask for it. Our whole community needs to grow a little, we won't be able to survive in a world where we are taken advantage of by people who think they can control us because we "love" the job.

I, for one, was not trained to think this - quite the opposite actually.  I'm also out of the industry for over 7 years now.  Coincidence? 
Get action. Do things; be sane; don’t fritter away your time; create, act, take a place wherever you are and be somebody; get action. -T. Roosevelt

Sarah.E

  • New to Town
  • **
  • Posts: 19
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Affiliations: Boston University
  • Experience: College/Graduate
Re: ARTICLE: Low Pay/No Pay (UK article, interesting read)
« Reply #7 on: Jun 12, 2013, 06:01 pm »
If it's any comfort at all, the rules which apply to actors don't apply to stage managers, technicians, designers or arts administrators. We're allowed to screw up: in fact, when we do screw up, it's usually the actors who have to wear the damage.

I'd be curious where people think directors fall on the 'second chances scale.'

As a student, I have to say I wish these issues of how to succeed are crucial, and the prevalence of low pay/no pay internships creates a tight spot for those who need to make money over the summers. Last summer I was lucky enough to be able to take an (unpaid) internship with a great local company, which gave me my first professional credit because my grandmother offered to pay for my housing since I was taking some classes as well. A large number of my classmates were not able to find internships, or even try to look, as the cost was prohibitive. I agree that internships for class credit can be a great compromise as it creates another source of 'pay' for the experience.

BARussell

  • SM Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 193
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Current Gig: Assistant to the Producers at Goodspeed Musicals
  • Experience: Professional
Re: ARTICLE: Low Pay/No Pay (UK article, interesting read)
« Reply #8 on: Jun 13, 2013, 01:31 am »
It's funny how hard it is to make people (and more often yourself) realize that. We have been so trained to believe that what we do is so different from all other jobs and that it's okay to make low or no money for it. We don't deserve a living wage, or benefits, or housing, or travel, or per diem, etc. Then when you do realize it companies are shocked when you ask for it. Our whole community needs to grow a little, we won't be able to survive in a world where we are taken advantage of by people who think they can control us because we "love" the job.

I, for one, was not trained to think this - quite the opposite actually.  I'm also out of the industry for over 7 years now.  Coincidence?

I had always assumed that "it is what it is". I had been told that the starving artist lifestyle was the only way, I think most people were (who else use to say "I'll live on someone's floor in NY if I have to, I don't care I just want to do theatre")  Unfortunately a lot of the time it is the only way, but I don't "love" it enough to live that way.  Which is exactly why I am doing this while it is still fun and while my non-theatre business grows and brings in my actual income.  I don't know what I would do if I actually lived off of this paycheck.
"We don't negotiate with weirdos!"

MatthewShiner

  • Forum Moderators
  • *****
  • Posts: 2478
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Affiliations: AEA, SMA
  • Current Gig: Freelance Stage Manager; Faculty for UMKC
  • Experience: Professional
Re: ARTICLE: Low Pay/No Pay (UK article, interesting read)
« Reply #9 on: Jun 13, 2013, 05:59 am »
The part we are trained that it's okay for artists to be poor - is part of the myth and fantasy of this career choice.

First off, as a stage manager, I put myself at arms length from Artists - sometimes I am working on art, sometimes entertainment, often time commerce.  But somehow, somehow we are sold the entire myth as well, and often we buy into it.  Which then allows producers, directors, etc, to produce theater and not pay those who creating their vision.  Which would be fine, if this was our profession, what we do for money.  But, because we are believe we work in the arts, it's romantic to be poor and creating are - they get away with it. 

Combine that with an over flooded market, which makes us always feel a bit on insecurity, we are always desperate for the next experience, the next credit, the next job.

This doesn't go away.  I am 25 years into this career, and I still take opportunities to workshop new shows below unemployment for the chance to get in on the ground floor of new work that turn commercial.

I think if people had to be paid a living wage, there would be less theater, and less opportunities - yes, I know that will be the fall out of this.  But I am not sure less theatre is a bad thing.  I think better theater is the goal in the long run.

 
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Anything posted here as in my own personal opinion, and does not necessarily reflect the opinion of my employer - whomever they be at a given moment in time.

Caroline Naveen

  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 56
    • View Profile
  • Experience: High School
Re: ARTICLE: Low Pay/No Pay (UK article, interesting read)
« Reply #10 on: Jun 13, 2013, 07:20 am »
I had always assumed that "it is what it is". I had been told that the starving artist lifestyle was the only way, I think most people were (who else use to say "I'll live on someone's floor in NY if I have to, I don't care I just want to do theatre")  Unfortunately a lot of the time it is the only way, but I don't "love" it enough to live that way.  Which is exactly why I am doing this while it is still fun and while my non-theatre business grows and brings in my actual income.  I don't know what I would do if I actually lived off of this paycheck.

That's cool that you have a side business and are still able to do theatre. I was wondering, I really enjoy theatre and would like to go into that but I'd really like to do something like you mentioned to bring in the "real" paycheck, but haven't been able to find anything. Is there a degree that I could get in college that could go both ways? Into the theatre world but could also be used to bring in the actual income? I've already considered a business degree and kind of on the fence with that one...any thoughts? Thanks :)

KMC

  • Forum Moderators
  • *****
  • Posts: 963
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Current Gig: Project Manager, Systems Integration
  • Experience: Former SM
Re: ARTICLE: Low Pay/No Pay (UK article, interesting read)
« Reply #11 on: Jun 13, 2013, 08:04 am »
It's funny how hard it is to make people (and more often yourself) realize that. We have been so trained to believe that what we do is so different from all other jobs and that it's okay to make low or no money for it. We don't deserve a living wage, or benefits, or housing, or travel, or per diem, etc. Then when you do realize it companies are shocked when you ask for it. Our whole community needs to grow a little, we won't be able to survive in a world where we are taken advantage of by people who think they can control us because we "love" the job.

I, for one, was not trained to think this - quite the opposite actually.  I'm also out of the industry for over 7 years now.  Coincidence?

I had always assumed that "it is what it is". I had been told that the starving artist lifestyle was the only way, I think most people were (who else use to say "I'll live on someone's floor in NY if I have to, I don't care I just want to do theatre")  Unfortunately a lot of the time it is the only way, but I don't "love" it enough to live that way.  Which is exactly why I am doing this while it is still fun and while my non-theatre business grows and brings in my actual income.  I don't know what I would do if I actually lived off of this paycheck.

And that's just it, isn't it?  That blind ambition to which so many SMs succumb.  As long as that "I don't care, I just want to do theatre" mentality is out there - there will be an abundance of low pay/no pay jobs.

Get action. Do things; be sane; don’t fritter away your time; create, act, take a place wherever you are and be somebody; get action. -T. Roosevelt

BARussell

  • SM Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 193
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Current Gig: Assistant to the Producers at Goodspeed Musicals
  • Experience: Professional
Re: ARTICLE: Low Pay/No Pay (UK article, interesting read)
« Reply #12 on: Jun 13, 2013, 11:16 am »
I had always assumed that "it is what it is". I had been told that the starving artist lifestyle was the only way, I think most people were (who else use to say "I'll live on someone's floor in NY if I have to, I don't care I just want to do theatre")  Unfortunately a lot of the time it is the only way, but I don't "love" it enough to live that way.  Which is exactly why I am doing this while it is still fun and while my non-theatre business grows and brings in my actual income.  I don't know what I would do if I actually lived off of this paycheck.

That's cool that you have a side business and are still able to do theatre. I was wondering, I really enjoy theatre and would like to go into that but I'd really like to do something like you mentioned to bring in the "real" paycheck, but haven't been able to find anything. Is there a degree that I could get in college that could go both ways? Into the theatre world but could also be used to bring in the actual income? I've already considered a business degree and kind of on the fence with that one...any thoughts? Thanks :)

I can't really answer that question, my situation is very rare and I wouldn't be able to do this if I didn't have a very supportive partner. I know a lot of people try that path but I don't think you can truly pursue this career while working another 9 to 5, if you just want to be an SM then I'm sure you can work at a  smaller regional or community theatre and have a day job, but any higher than that and it's a full-time commitment.
Does anyone have a different experience?
"We don't negotiate with weirdos!"

ejsmith3130

  • SM Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 155
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Affiliations: EMC
  • Current Gig: Coordinating a Move to Napaskiak AK- Harder than any show I've ever done!
  • Experience: Professional
Re: ARTICLE: Low Pay/No Pay (UK article, interesting read)
« Reply #13 on: Jun 13, 2013, 11:53 am »
I know a lot of people try that path but I don't think you can truly pursue this career while working another 9 to 5, if you just want to be an SM then I'm sure you can work at a  smaller regional or community theatre and have a day job, but any higher than that and it's a full-time commitment.
Does anyone have a different experience?

This year I made the change of traveling all year to wherevever there was work that would pay and house me, to picking a city and settling down (as much as you can in theatre- I still did go to alaska for a month for a job). It is a different way of working and living- The first thing I did was get a day job while I searched for theatre work. I have been through several day jobs at this point, trying to find the right fit- the most important thing in the end was the flexibility of my manager. I got a job at a smaller Equity theatre (SPT level 8 Contract). I knew that I would have to work both jobs at part time rates to pay my bills. At the worst I was working 80hour weeks to bring in just enough to pay my bills. For me it was worth it to break into the community and get my name out there.

The most important thing though- I knew this was temporary. I can not do this forever. Not having days off during the entire run of a show is exhasting, and not healthy. The good thing in my case was that my hard work impressed my bosses (funny enough at both jobs) so that I am not going to have to continue working both part time. Next season I will be full time at one or the other.

I guess the bottom line is there comes a point when you have to  make the choice like BARussell says and make a full time commitment one way or another. Especially if you want any sort of time for a personal life.

 

riotous