Poll

Have you done an internship?

Internship was unpaid
7 (13%)
Internship was unpaid but with credit
7 (13%)
Internship was unpaid but with housing
1 (1.9%)
Internship had a small stipend but no housing
21 (38.9%)
Internship had a small stipend AND housing
13 (24.1%)
Internship was a paid position (That is paid at least mininum wage)
5 (9.3%)

Total Members Voted: 54

Author Topic: Unpaid Interns, Complicit Colleges  (Read 9843 times)

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MatthewShiner

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Unpaid Interns, Complicit Colleges
« on: Apr 03, 2011, 09:07 pm »
A link to the NY Times Article . . . more food for thought on the Unpaid internship path.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/03/opinion/03perlin.html?_r=2&src=me&ref=homepage


(And there is the link now . . .)
« Last Edit: Apr 03, 2011, 09:41 pm by MatthewShiner »
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Anything posted here as in my own personal opinion, and does not necessarily reflect the opinion of my employer - whomever they be at a given moment in time.

dallas10086

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Re: Unpaid Interns, Complicit Colleges
« Reply #1 on: Apr 03, 2011, 09:20 pm »
No link!

hbelden

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Re: Unpaid Interns, Complicit Colleges
« Reply #2 on: Apr 03, 2011, 09:44 pm »
Is there a way to see the results of the poll without actually voting yourself?  I click "view results" and the page just reloads.
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Re: Unpaid Interns, Complicit Colleges
« Reply #3 on: Apr 05, 2011, 02:51 am »

late_stranger

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Re: Unpaid Interns, Complicit Colleges
« Reply #4 on: Apr 10, 2011, 11:35 pm »
I voted, but my internship was designed for high school students (I am one), with a VERY small stipend (not meant to support living on one's own) - it was $500 for a six week production, which worked out to significantly less than $1/ hour.
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Caroline Naveen

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Re: Unpaid Interns, Complicit Colleges
« Reply #5 on: Dec 15, 2013, 12:10 pm »
I've done an unpaid internship (2 years) at a professional theatre and have just been given an upgrade to an internship with a stipend. Not sure how much yet, but it's my first theatre job where I have ever earned anything so I'm very excited. I think my unpaid internship was great and an amazing learning experience for me. I did a lot of "un-fun work" in addition to the learning (copies, typing, paperwork etc.) that I already knew how to, but was really given a ton of awesome responsibilities and privileges that really tested me and taught me how to learn and retain information quickly. So overall the education benefit of the internship for me was amazing despite the hours of paperwork that I did every day which we all know paperwork is part of the job. :P

It bothers me that people take advantage of some interns and give them no educational work and the tasks no one wants to do. However, I also really don't appreciate the interns that come in and never want to do any of the hard work. It's part of the job, and in my opinion everyone must "pay their dues" before they are able to do a job they really enjoy. My first days in the theatre were spent, making copies, watching children and other mediocre tasks, but once reliability and progress has been shown in these tasks you can and should be trusted with more which is exactly what has happened in my case.

To Younger SM's:
It is not my belief that these discussions about unpaid internships is to encourage us to jump to conclusions and think that we should automatically be paid or push to get there any sooner. Stage management is a craft and must be learned, just be careful about it. That is what is trying to be said here, don't stick around a theatre forever doing paperwork and sitting behind a desk, but rather expect a lot of this your first year/first few months as your peers and superiors may be testing you. Every job in theatre is important and treat every job you are given that way with enthusiasm and make sure that it is done to the best of your ability, however if you are never given ANY opportunity to learn (sometimes you may have to ask, people don't know if you never say anything) it is probably in your best interest to keep looking for new jobs or an internship elsewhere.

To the Advanced/Adult SM's:
 As a member of what is classified beginner/young stage managers I think that how you and the world approaches this issue is important. Unpaid internships are a great way to learn, and in my case have been very helpful. Unfortunately I understand that this is not always the case. It is important that there are people out there to help guide and encourage the new members of the community, but it should never be sugar coated. What I am seeing more and more often is that kids my age want to immediately be given opportunities that they are not ready for without doing any work.

What I personally found to be useful about the early months of my unpaid internship was that no one made it easy. Sometimes my job required me to sit behind a desk for what seemed like forever typing, making copies and doing deliveries, but at the same time there were people there who encouraged me and I was able to watch the paperwork and information that I generated come into use during the shows. Internships should always grow, and you need to find someone who is willing to stick with it until the end so that you can push them to do harder tasks and become more successful. Those are the people that are going to stay with stage management for a while. It is extremely difficult but very important that people involved in the industry are able to find the balance between work and education. An internship should not mean little/no work that no one wants to do (sweep/mop the stage) but at the same time it needs to have an educational value (here is how this works, here is why we do this).

Resolution Idea:
It happens, everyone can get carried away over the period of a show, apprentices and interns can have incredibly long hours and very short lunch/dinner breaks. Something that has been extremely helpful to me in the past is oftentimes there is a person trusted by the theatre who is able to look in as a third party and advocate for the interns and apprentices. This person works very closely with the SM and director when the weakly schedule brings to their attention things that are often forgotten in the scheduling process. i.e. if rehearsal starts at this time for this scene that means so and so will only have this long for dinner because they are coming straight from another show. This at least puts everything out into the open which is good for the interns as well as for the administration members.


maximillionx

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Re: Unpaid Interns, Complicit Colleges
« Reply #6 on: Dec 15, 2013, 01:23 pm »
Can we add "I have not taken an internship" to the choices?  I know I'm probably one of the few....
I never have taken an internship.  When in college, my mentor (an old vet of the navy and IATSE) advised us to reach and apply for actual, paid positions.  It always served me well while I was in college and subsequently, led me to my current staff position which I started immediately following the end of finals.  Disclaimer: I do not work in NYC or have the pressures of the NYC market.  Thus, could get away with not taking an internship.
I love this debate over paid and unpaid...so much food for thought!

KMC

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Re: Unpaid Interns, Complicit Colleges
« Reply #7 on: Dec 16, 2013, 01:34 pm »
When in college, my mentor (an old vet of the navy and IATSE) advised us to reach and apply for actual, paid positions.

This. 

I approached my stage management career* with the same attitude.  I did an internship in high school with a reputable regional theater, but during summers in college and upon graduation I only accepted paid positions.  After graduation I was offered a couple positions as a PA, with PA wages.  I politely declined because I knew I was qualified to ASM smaller regional or summer stock shows at the market rate of an ASM.  Shortly thereafter I accepted a full time SM position with an excellent wage for someone straight out of school, with some basic medical benefits included.  Had I accepted the frighteningly standard Intern->PA->ASM track I'd have found myself on a much worse path financially. 

I know it flies in the face of much of the conventional wisdom in the industry and many reading this may disagree, but at the very least - set your target for a real, paid position.  There's no reason to immediately target unpaid work and accept the unpaid labor path as fait accompli.  Now, if you're coming out of a four year college/university and the only thing you're qualified to do is intern, then you need to do some soul searching and figure out what you just paid for.

Is it right that some companies take advantage of unpaid labor to the degree they do?  I don't think so.  But if you're willing to work for free, then you shouldn't expect to be paid.


* my stage management career was admittedly short, though that's a symptom of financial reality in the industry above all, and is likely the source of most of my opinions on this subject.
« Last Edit: Dec 16, 2013, 02:11 pm by kmc307 »
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Bwoodbury

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Re: Unpaid Interns, Complicit Colleges
« Reply #8 on: Dec 16, 2013, 10:51 pm »
I did one unpaid internship my senior year for 3 credits and it was really important for me. I was a pretty big fish within the university environment and it helped me figure out what I was going to need to work on as I graduated. They covered my parking so that I did not lose any money being there, and by work hours corresponded with the credit hours.

Once I graduated I only worked for pay. I did work one gig where about half my pay went straight to gas, but after that I moved out of my parent's house and HAD to take work that paid me enough to live. It's served me pretty well.

People keep saying they don't live in New York, and I don't, but I also don't think it's fair to use that to gauge whether it's possible to get paid for your work. It's hard everywhere, but it's worth the effort.

ejsmith3130

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Re: Unpaid Interns, Complicit Colleges
« Reply #9 on: Dec 22, 2013, 07:34 pm »
Interesting quote from the article:

"The United States Department of Labor says an intern at a for-profit company may work without pay only when the program is similar to that offered in a vocational school, benefits the student, does not displace a regular employee and does not entitle the student to a job; in addition, the employer must derive “no immediate advantage” from the student’s work and both sides must agree that the student is not entitled to wages." (emphasis is my own)

Considering many theatres are catagorized as non profits, are they to be held to the same standards?

--

Another point I wanted to address was the idea of When you are working an internship. I have worked two, one unpaid while I was a sophomore university student that my college helped me secure (it was not an advertised position) that I received college credit for, and another one that was paid, after I graduated that was advertised and essentially a low paying job. In college when I had only a few bills to pay and was primarily supported by my family, it was absolutly appropriate and feasable to essentially pay-to-work.  After that I took an internship to further my connections, and under the belief that work breeds work- at the time it was take the internship with housing and a low stipend, or move back home and work as a substitute teacher. Either way, I think timing was very important in each decision. You need to weigh where you are in your career and decide if the internship is worth it. In my case, I felt that I gained a lot in both situations.

Thespi620

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Re: Unpaid Interns, Complicit Colleges
« Reply #10 on: Dec 24, 2013, 12:05 am »
I think this is an incredibly important discussion to have, especially considering the economy and the rate at which SMs are coming out of colleges looking to break in. I have done two internships that were billed as such in the theatre, neither of which were SM positions, but both of which served me quite well.

First was a (very) small stipend with housing at a summer theatre where I worked box office/administrative offices. They COULD have done their work without the intern staff, but (besides the fact that the box office manager was, how shall we say...not qualified?) my presence certainly made it easier and more efficient for the time I was there. I learned a lot about running a non-profit and felt I got my foot in the door that summer in a good way. I believe there was the option for credit, which I did not request. This was during college.

After college, I moved to NYC and took a part-time unpaid Education internship with a theatre company in midtown, alongside a part time service job. At the start of this position, I was doing largely things they could do without (and had done without for a while). Midway through, the opportunity arose to stage manage within the Education department. The SM position was one they budgeted for every year, and offered me a stipend to be the SM while continuing my normal duties as the unpaid intern whenever rehearsals didn't conflict. This was a best-case scenario because they allowed my rehearsal duties to take priority over the other office work I had been doing. If there was ever a day when I didn't have much to do for the show, though, I could get some clerical work out of the way and still feel like I was getting paid for it. I certainly learned some things while I was in the office, but learned more about the company and the programming and myself during the SM project.

I have never taken an SM internship that was billed as such and did not pay. I have done shows for no pay before, but those were all favor-to-a-friend/filling a weekend with a reading sort of occasions. I turned down an unpaid SM internship due to long hours and inflexibility once. I'm glad I did, in hindsight.

[The SM is] a very gifted, slightly eccentric master mechanic [keeping] a cantankerous, highly complex machine running at top efficiency by talking to it, soothing it, & lovingly fixing whatever is broken. 
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MatthewShiner

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Re: Unpaid Interns, Complicit Colleges
« Reply #11 on: Dec 24, 2013, 05:59 am »
Quote
Considering many theatres are catagorized as non profits, are they to be held to the same standards?

Being non-profit or not, you still need to abide by labor laws, which means that most non-profit internships need to fit that same bill.

And all theater jobs should pay minimum wage.  (That's the next step)
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Anything posted here as in my own personal opinion, and does not necessarily reflect the opinion of my employer - whomever they be at a given moment in time.

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Re: Unpaid Interns, Complicit Colleges
« Reply #12 on: Dec 24, 2013, 01:22 pm »
From your mouth Matthew, to God's ears...
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NJ.JerrySmith

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Re: Unpaid Interns, Complicit Colleges
« Reply #13 on: Dec 24, 2013, 04:24 pm »
Here's a link to another article about internships at Sleep No More

http://www.ibtimes.com/former-sleep-no-more-interns-say-immersive-nyc-megahit-offers-little-educational-benefit-1499418

I also agree with maximillionx's teacher and it's something I wish my teachers pushed more, the concept of getting paid what you're worth. I'm in my last year at a conservatory training program and I think reaching for a paid position will be more beneficial in both the short and long run, for both money and experience. I don't want to arbitrarily limit myself to only internships because I'm "new".

BARussell

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Re: Unpaid Interns, Complicit Colleges
« Reply #14 on: Jan 02, 2014, 02:26 pm »
Here's a link to another article about internships at Sleep No More

http://www.ibtimes.com/former-sleep-no-more-interns-say-immersive-nyc-megahit-offers-little-educational-benefit-1499418

I also agree with maximillionx's teacher and it's something I wish my teachers pushed more, the concept of getting paid what you're worth. I'm in my last year at a conservatory training program and I think reaching for a paid position will be more beneficial in both the short and long run, for both money and experience. I don't want to arbitrarily limit myself to only internships because I'm "new".

I agree too, but I wouldn't exclude paid internships just yet though, there can be a lot of benefit to them, especially when you are compensated equal to a entry level position. In my experience a paid intern/PA position at a better company beats a slightly better paid higher level position at a small company, but that is my personal preference and I had no desire to spend my summers sweating away in a barn or the equivalent.
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