Author Topic: Dear Abby: Gay students in the dressing room  (Read 13034 times)

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PSMKay

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Dear Abby: Gay students in the dressing room
« on: Feb 19, 2014, 02:40 pm »
This is a bit abnormal of a situation. Normally our Dear Abby posts are initiated by our members who wish to remain anonymous, by requesting that a moderator open a discussion on their behalf. In this case, a thread was opened by a member and then retracted.

One of our novice members recently posted a thread about working with gay students for the first time in a high school's drama club. However, as this individual posts to SMNetwork using their real name, they subsequently requested that the thread be pulled down, either out of embarrassment or fear.

It is my belief that the discussion had not yet run its course and that its subject matter is absolutely vital to have here for future SMs who might be in the same situation.

Yomanda removed the thread but archived the text (and its two replies) in our moderator area. With apologies to the original poster, I'm going to recreate the thread here with their name removed and their original post edited a little for clarity. Please treat it like you would any other Dear Abby thread.

Original Post:

Quote
It seems as though with the topics of gay marriage etc....more and more students are coming out as being gay. How does one deal with a situation with a gay teen in the cast with only two dressing rooms? It is also making some other cast members uncomfortable (possibly because of the complete foreignness of this situation) and we do have several very young cast members who don't even know what being gay means.

It was brought to my attention by one of the students in the current cast that the current situation regarding dressing rooms was rather awkward during our last show and did not elaborate. How should this situation be dealt with? How does one typically divide dressing rooms with gay casts? Do special arrangements need to be made in a situation like this? Also, is calling it "gay" even the correct word? Or is there a more politically correct reference?

I live in a very small conservative town, and quite frankly I have never met a young person like this before and know that the situation is extremely delicate. Thanks.

MatthewShiner responded:
Quote
Dressing rooms are divided between Male and Female, regardless of the sexual orientation.  You often will put minors in different dressing room then adults.  It tends not to be a big problem when you move into the professional theater world - as usually, given the diversity of the artistic community - they are either comfortable around the diversity or have learned coping mechanisms.

I think you just treat them as a cast member . . . and expect everyone to deal with them as a cast member.  If there is deep rooted homophobia in you cast / theater group, then you have a big problem to solve.  Hopefully, people can move past it and deal with people as human beings.

Now, if the gay performer is doing something unacceptable in the dressing room, then behavior should change.  But if other people just feel uncomfortable because the person next to them identifies as "gay', then that maybe something for them to work on.

Best of luck in a very difficult situation.

Tempest responded:
Quote
I am 100% with Matthew. You need to treat your gay cast member just like any other cast member. Because they are just like any other cast member. In regards to working with minors, you need to treat the gay cast member just like you would any other cast member. Because they are just like any other cast member. (Homosexual does not equal pedophile! Where do people even get that idea?!)

As far as the kids not understand what "gay is," it doesn't matter. Everyone's just there to put on a show, so keep the focus on that. Really, kids tend to be far more accepting of "different" people than adults are, unless they've been specifically taught otherwise.

I also agree with Matthew's discussion of other people feeling uncomfortable just because the person at the next mirror is gay. That is their problem, and one they'd better deal with quickly if they intend to keep working in the arts, or really, go out into the world at all.

What really concerns me is your description of it being such a small, such a conservative town that you've never even met a gay person before (really, truly, please just treat them like everyone else!). If your cast member came out of the closet recently, they're probably feeling very nervous and on edge. Or they may be susceptible to bullying, especially if it's socially acceptable to harass homosexuals in your community. You might want to keep a weather eye out for them, and know what to do and who to go to if that's an issue. Young people have committed suicide in those situations; someone else stepping in and saying, "It's not okay to treat people like that," whether it's you or someone else, could save a life.







Dart

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Re: Dear Abby: Gay students in the dressing room
« Reply #1 on: Feb 20, 2014, 09:08 pm »
Are there any queer students in any sports teams, or dance groups, or any other school-related groups of people-who-change-clothes? If so, you could speak to the adult(s) in charge - chaperons, coaches, teachers - and see how they've handled it in the past.

I absolutely agree with everyone in that the rooms should be divided by gender, if they are divided at all. I acted some in high school, and we actually had one large room (technically where makeup and other "dressed" activities happened) and two rooms coming out of that one, which were the girls' and guys' dressing rooms. We didn't tell our parents, of course, but since the dressing rooms were so tiny, and since mic-ing still happened in the big room and required stripping to undershirts, guys and girls changed together in the big room. No issues came out of that - there were so many people, and we were so distracted by trying to get dressed on time, that incidents couldn't really happen.

This happened throughout college as well (several rooms that ended up being co-ed) and has happened in more than one theatre I've worked in - most remarkably, my current theatre only has one dressing room. We could technically hang a curtain or put up a divider to separate performers by gender, but although we bring this up as an option every time (and allow for actors to tell us separately and confidentially that they'd like a divider), nobody's ever asked for it.

I bring up co-ed dressing rooms because it's a similar idea - there may or may not be a person in the mix who is attracted to someone else in the room, but attraction does not mean they will act, particularly with other people around.

I also assume your space has bathrooms - if someone is uncomfortable changing in front of others, they can always change there. This doesn't have to be someone uncomfortable around queer people - it could be someone uncomfortable with their weight, or a birth mark, scars, or absolutely anything else.

With the oppression that queer people have to live through, ranging (and depending on the state or country) from no health insurance for their partner to being fired for being "perceived" as gay (even if you're straight!), it's incredibly important to be supportive of queer youth, and to set a positive example for straight youth and adults to follow. Now's the time to firmly determine that dressing rooms are separated by gender - not by orientation - and that young men are no lesser or different for being gay (or bi, or queer, or anything else - and same applies to women).

I find it particularly surprising that this is a problem in the theatre department since there's that ancient stereotype, which incidentally has proved overwhelmingly false in my experience, of theatre attracting queer people. I know that in high school and college, all the guys in my theatre club/department were assumed to be gay. Statistically, this has happened before in your school - the kid(s) in question just happened to be closeted. And that's an important point to make - the fact that nobody's ever been vocal about being queer does not mean there have not been boys-attracted-to-boys, or girls-attracted-to-girls, changing with their gender.

It does sound like a difficult situation, and maybe a conversation with all the students (and adults) in the mix is required. This could range from an hour-long presentation with speakers to a 2-minute comment at the top of rehearsal, explaining that someone's orientation does not contradict their gender, that sexual inappropriateness will not be tolerated regardless of gender (and if it does happen, it will be punished or pursued in the same exact way it would if a straight guy snuck into the girls' dressing room, or vice-versa), and that you're a big theater family that's going to remain caring, nurturing, and loving to each other.

BARussell

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Re: Dear Abby: Gay students in the dressing room
« Reply #2 on: Feb 21, 2014, 03:04 pm »
Each situation is unique, so  I can only answer questions and help clarify but cant say exactly how you should handle it. That requires you to observe and decide what is best.

Quote
It seems as though with the topics of gay marriage etc....more and more students are coming out as being gay. How does one deal with a situation with a gay teen in the cast with only two dressing rooms? It is also making some other cast members uncomfortable (possibly because of the complete foreignness of this situation) and we do have several very young cast members who don't even know what being gay means.

You deal with situation by putting boys in one and girls in the other. The young cast members don't really need to know what it is, and if older kids are saying inappropriate things then maybe the young ones should be moved to a separate dressing room. Which is typically what happens professionally anyway.   Most likely it is just the fear of the unknown, maybe they don't want a gay person undressed around them or looking at them undressed, well remind them that it is pretty much the same as going swimming, ... just help them realize that it is the reality of living in the world and that the gay person will not do anything different from anyone else in the room, especially since they don't know if anyone else is or isn't gay.

Quote
It was brought to my attention by one of the students in the current cast that the current situation regarding dressing rooms was rather awkward during our last show and did not elaborate. How should this situation be dealt with? How does one typically divide dressing rooms with gay casts? Do special arrangements need to be made in a situation like this? Also, is calling it "gay" even the correct word? Or is there a more politically correct reference?

As for the older kids, you have to specifically find out what their fears are and address them.  If they don't elaborate you cant help. You don't divide the dressing room, any different than you would normally, no special arrangements are necessary unless the situation escalates. But more often that not I have to seperate people because they dont like each other. Yes gay is the correct word.

Quote
I live in a very small conservative town, and quite frankly I have never met a young person like this before and know that the situation is extremely delicate. Thanks.

While the situation is delicate, the kids are not.  It is a learning opportunity for all the parties involved and you shouldn't tip toe around the situation if it is a problem address it and if it is not then let it go. Helping too much and preventing people from solving their own problems is almost as bad as not helping at all.
"We don't negotiate with weirdos!"

PSMKay

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Re: Dear Abby: Gay students in the dressing room
« Reply #3 on: Feb 22, 2014, 06:38 pm »
It is also important to remember that while one brave student in your cast may be decided and open about their sexual preference, others may be closeted or questioning. For those students, the treatment and attitude presented will certainly be internalized.

Our job of facilitating the creation of theatre includes making the room a safe space for all. Not just the ones who speak up, but also the ones who are watching.

Branden

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Re: Dear Abby: Gay students in the dressing room
« Reply #4 on: Feb 23, 2014, 07:35 pm »
I want to share a story here that was presented to one of the teachers in high school.

As a high school student, I was working on a show. There were several closeted students (which I can say, because they are friends and are out now).

The technical crew was traditionally the stronger, jocks. In fact, the starting quarterback for the football team was a technician. The high-ups in the school though it was wonderful, and showed the dissolving of walls between cliques, and it really was nice to think that people who would usually bully someone who participated in theatre was participating themselves.

As an idea, it sounded wonderful. In reality, it brought tensions into the program, and created a wall between actors and technicians that was much greater than you would traditionally joke about.

So, here is what happened.

All the boys shared one dressing room, and the girls another. The only bathrooms backstage were in the dressing rooms, so male technicians would wonder through the dressing room to use the bathroom.

From what I understand, one technician had a bit of history being a bully to students he assumed were gay. Often in gym class he and his friends would bully them, to the extent that lawsuits could probably have been brought up if they were done today.

This technician decided that one day he was going to expose himself to the dressing room one day, doing something called 'a monkey's brains'. One of my good friends was in the dressing room, and he been on the receiving end to this technician's bullying before, so knowing better than to make a scene, he quickly left the dressing room.

The technician yelled some snide comments associating his leaving with getting physically excited.

The next day in gym class, that technician and his friends approached the actor holding him to the ground and rubbing their genitals on him, making snide remarks about his reaction to the previous day's 'monkey braining'.

Here's where I got involved. My friend went and told one of the teachers in the drama program, and asked me to back up the technician's tendency to expose himself in the dressing room.

The teacher told my friend that this was not a problem for him, but for the gym teacher.

This is where I believe the drama teacher went wrong.

So, the point of my story is that you have to be very careful about shared dressing rooms. Students who are openly gay may be the target of bullying in the dressing room, or vise versa.

If anyone is uncomfortable in the group dressing room, I would carefully find a way to make them comfortable; for example, one year all the actors were told that they were to wear a white tee and athletic shorts under their costumes, with the idea being that changing into the costumes would be less exposing. This made said student comfortable with sharing a dressing room.

(On an unrelated note, the year that everyone wore shorts and a tee was the year with the most de-pantsing, which lead to some angry phone calls from parents.)

As a Stage Manager in the school, I would say it is more up to the department to handle such situations, and not your personal liability. It's treading on egg shells, and every school department will want to handle it differently.
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On_Headset

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Re: Dear Abby: Gay students in the dressing room
« Reply #5 on: Feb 25, 2014, 03:07 pm »
There's actually a fascinating tangent to this question which I'm surprised we haven't already hit upon: what do to when you have transfolk involved in the show.

I'm sure we've all seen hysteria concerning transfolk and bathrooms/locker rooms/shower rooms/etc.: there's a critical mass of people in this world who are clearly deeply, deeply, write-an-angry-letter-to-the-editor uncomfortable at the mere notion that they might be disrobed or otherwise "vulnerable" in the presence of a person whose sex and gender identities  (http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/) don't necessarily align, or at least don't align to the observer's satisfaction.

Suppose that two members of a 10-person acting company are complaining about discomfort over having to share a dressing room with a third person who is, as they put it, "a man who thinks he's a woman".

How do you react?

Consider the following four competing priorities:

1) You should not ask transfolk to use the "wrong" dressing room, because that's just straight-up insulting. ("Hi Jade, I know you're a woman, but the women are really uncomfortable changing around you, so can we just pretend you're a man?")

2) You should not set up a private, "transfolk only" dressing room, because that has the effect of segregating them (bad for morale, bad for cast cohesion, and it carries a very negative connotation) and forcing them out of the closet to the entire cast, two things you must avoid doing at all costs.

3) You should not tell someone who complains to "just get over" their discomfort, because while this may be the morally-robust and upstanding response, it might also lead to people quitting the show.

4) THIS IS THE REALLY IMPORTANT ONE: you should not make a big deal out of it, because drawing unnecessary attention to the issue is going to make life even harder than it needs to be for the transfolk in the cast. The more you talk about it, the more you waffle, the more people you involve, the more documentation you make, the more meetings you have, the worse your solution is.

What do you do?
« Last Edit: Feb 25, 2014, 03:10 pm by On_Headset »

BARussell

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Re: Dear Abby: Gay students in the dressing room
« Reply #6 on: Mar 03, 2014, 02:58 pm »

What do you do?

Which reminds me. I know the person who developed the app to help trans people find comfortable public restrooms. But I've been thinking to what point can this system be abused, or to what degree DO people need to be comfortable with all of this. I mean you can really make this point about anything, but most of us, us theatre folk, advocate all kinds of acceptance but when are we "forcing our ideas on someone else" just like we accuse others of.
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Re: Dear Abby: Gay students in the dressing room
« Reply #7 on: Mar 03, 2014, 03:45 pm »

What do you do?
I mean you can really make this point about anything, but most of us, us theatre folk, advocate all kinds of acceptance but when are we "forcing our ideas on someone else" just like we accuse others of.

I was thinking this to myself earlier in the thread.  Often times those that are the strongest advocates of "tolerance" are the least tolerant of any viewpoint that isn't their own.  I've found this to be pretty universal across the political spectrum.  It's quite interesting, but maybe best left for another topic.
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On_Headset

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Re: Dear Abby: Gay students in the dressing room
« Reply #8 on: Mar 03, 2014, 04:39 pm »

What do you do?

Which reminds me. I know the person who developed the app to help trans people find comfortable public restrooms. But I've been thinking to what point can this system be abused, or to what degree DO people need to be comfortable with all of this. I mean you can really make this point about anything, but most of us, us theatre folk, advocate all kinds of acceptance but when are we "forcing our ideas on someone else" just like we accuse others of.
To turn that around a little, though, I think we're very much creatures of our environment.

One of the things I don't like about our industry (and I know I'm not alone in this!) is that, as individuals, we're disposable.

If every single Stage Manager was to quit tomorrow and decide to become cosmeticians instead, the theatrical world would grind to a halt.

But any given individual SM? Okay, some of us become Ents ("I've been with this company for 26 years. I'm the only one who knows where the lightswitches are. Go ahead: fire me. Go on. You just try it."), and some of us get Equity cards which give us access to periods of stable employment, but a lot of us are employed very, very precariously. You piss off the wrong person, effective midnight tonight you'll never work in this town again--and they mean it.

And yet there's a rose in this thicket, because it means that we heavily prioritize people who get along and tolerate one another and adjust their behaviour to work around other people.

You won't work on the Sabbath? There are literally thousands of wannabe SMs who will.

You refuse to work with a lesbian? Too bad. She's the producer. Get over it or get out of the building.

You can't resist the urge to crack obnoxious, sexist jokes? If the wrong person overhears you, you'll be cracking them all you like--from the comfort of your data-entry cubicle.

While this phenomenon isn't entirely honorable--again, it's down in large part to insecurity in labour--it also means that we, as a profession, recognize that it takes all kinds to make theatre. We can work with anyone, we will work with anyone, and we will respect and treat them as we would anyone else.

And I think, in turn, that this makes theatre a richer art form. We can go places and include people who aren't necessarily incorporated into other communities. There's a reason theatre is a "gay thing" and a "jewish thing": not that long ago, we had opportunities for members of these communities that they'd never get anywhere else. (You wanted to be an openly-gay accountant in the 1940s? No dice. You wanted to be an openly-gay chorus boy? Well, if you aren't too overt about it...)

None of this is to say that we ever deserve a gold start for inclusion. (Actors of colour, and especially female actors of colour, will cheerfully tell you how lousy their job market is. And they're right.) But I think we do better than most, and I think it's less to do with "forcing our ideas" of tolerance onto others and more to do with circumstance.

You're going to work with this actor whether you like it or not. Get over it.

We're doing this script whether you like it or not. Deal.

Your producer is a transdude. If you don't like it, find a new job. Good luck with that.
« Last Edit: Mar 03, 2014, 04:43 pm by On_Headset »

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Re: Dear Abby: Gay students in the dressing room
« Reply #9 on: Mar 04, 2014, 11:06 am »

What do you do?
I mean you can really make this point about anything, but most of us, us theatre folk, advocate all kinds of acceptance but when are we "forcing our ideas on someone else" just like we accuse others of.

I was thinking this to myself earlier in the thread.  Often times those that are the strongest advocates of "tolerance" are the least tolerant of any viewpoint that isn't their own.  I've found this to be pretty universal across the political spectrum.  It's quite interesting, but maybe best left for another topic.

Thing is, if the question were, "What do I do about assigning dressing rooms to a black actor? I'm afraid the other cast members might be uncomfortable sharing a dressing room with him," we wouldn't be having a side discussion about tolerance. It's an absurd question in this day and age.

No, we can't force tolerance on others. Either they are comfortable or they aren't and it all has to do with what goes on in their own head. But we can and should enforce working conditions wherein every company member feels safe, productive, and valued. And this means everyone behaves civilly. Frankly, I don't want to work with anyone, or expose other company members to anyone, who can't be polite and get along with the sorts of "different" people they might have to work with. This work is hard enough.
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Re: Dear Abby: Gay students in the dressing room
« Reply #10 on: Mar 04, 2014, 11:13 am »
There may also be legal or policy ramifications of the company you work for segregating people by sexuality . . .

What I find hysterical about this, in an odd sort of way, given these are younger performers, for every one gay person who is out, there is probably another gay person who is closeted . . .

I think perhaps you are starting to open a huge came of worms if you play this out to it's odd conclusion . . .

Dressing Room Assignments
Straight Males
Straight Females
Gay Males
Gay Females
Questioning Males
Questioning Females
Transgender  Males
Transgender Females
Males who are bullies to other males
Females who are bullies to other females
etc
etc
etc
And then we get into race and nationality
And age
Economic Status

Where does one stop . . . I don't feel comfortable with anyone from the west side of the town . . . I don't like dressing next to conservative Christians who drink coffee . . .
 
Eventually the cast needs to learn to get along, and when they start the process, it might be best to tell everyone - we have two dressing areas - Males and Females.  And leave it at that . . . if they actors are smart, they will put two and two together - and if they don' feel comfortable with that for any reason . . . ANY REASON . . . they do not need to participate in the theater.

« Last Edit: Mar 04, 2014, 11:16 am by MatthewShiner »
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Re: Dear Abby: Gay students in the dressing room
« Reply #11 on: Mar 04, 2014, 11:14 am »
Maybe a women's dressing room, a men's dressing room and a changing room or two (which could be as simple as a pipe and drape area in the dressing room) would solve the issue.  In a high school environment if the policies of the school support it, you could make everyone actually get naked in the private changing rooms, and then have the group dressing rooms for the rest.  It's certainly equal treatment for everyone.

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Re: Dear Abby: Gay students in the dressing room
« Reply #12 on: Mar 04, 2014, 10:40 pm »

What do you do?
I mean you can really make this point about anything, but most of us, us theatre folk, advocate all kinds of acceptance but when are we "forcing our ideas on someone else" just like we accuse others of.

I was thinking this to myself earlier in the thread.  Often times those that are the strongest advocates of "tolerance" are the least tolerant of any viewpoint that isn't their own.  I've found this to be pretty universal across the political spectrum.  It's quite interesting, but maybe best left for another topic.

Thing is, if the question were, "What do I do about assigning dressing rooms to a black actor? I'm afraid the other cast members might be uncomfortable sharing a dressing room with him," we wouldn't be having a side discussion about tolerance. It's an absurd question in this day and age.

No, we can't force tolerance on others. Either they are comfortable or they aren't and it all has to do with what goes on in their own head. But we can and should enforce working conditions wherein every company member feels safe, productive, and valued. And this means everyone behaves civilly. Frankly, I don't want to work with anyone, or expose other company members to anyone, who can't be polite and get along with the sorts of "different" people they might have to work with. This work is hard enough.

I don't know...I think that oversimplifies it. But like previously stated, maybe best left for another topic.
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Re: Dear Abby: Gay students in the dressing room
« Reply #13 on: Mar 05, 2014, 10:28 am »
All of this said, perhaps LizzG's suggestion is the simplest and most elegant solution? 

Regardless of sexuality/gender/etc they are after all in high school.  Even the most homogenous groups of high schoolers are socially awkward and likely inexperienced in these situations.

Specifically as an educational environment with minors perhaps it's best to provide all students a few private areas to change.
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Branden

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Re: Dear Abby: Gay students in the dressing room
« Reply #14 on: Oct 27, 2014, 05:30 pm »
So, I read this a long time ago, and it's bothered me ever since.

I talked about it with some SM friends, and I wanted to bring out a point.

Working corporate theatre with kids aged 16-25, I've noticed that (since it's corporate), we have to be very strict with who can use what space to change in.

There is no exception to the rules put out for us, as the company is publicly shared with thousands of employees, so it has a huge HR department.

We actually have a transgender performer, who though legally is a male, is a female in every other way.

She shares a dressing room with everyone else, but when she goes to change, she uses the female restroom, and does so in a stall. She was not asked to do this, but does so on her own.

I know this is a bit of a tangent, but the point I wanted to make is that most transgender people are very aware (to say the least) of these issues, and have encountered every awkward situation imaginable. They are usually great about taking it on themselves to make sure they are not going to raise a fuss with other performers or HR. Early on, the idea of having a trans female was scary for all of the Stage Managers, because we weren't sure on how to deal with it. We quickly discovered that it was in fact a non-issue. She took it upon herself to making changing a private matter, and in fact, it's been the biggest non-issue of the season.

My point is this; if you have a transgender performer, and you're unsure as to how to handle it, ask them. They'll appreciate that you don't make assumptions and chances are will have been through similar situations before and happy to help.
 
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